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Old 02-27-2007, 02:27 AM #41
brownpimp88 brownpimp88 is offline
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Originally Posted by Yogi View Post
First off, no I don't find it ironic how guys like Freddie Welsh & Johnny Kilbane weren't included in The Ring's "80 best of 80 years" issue (both appear in their all-time divisional rankings at 12th and 6th respectively...and in case you can't figure it out for yourself, by their "all-time rankings" they're ratings consist of those who fought from the beginning of the MoQ era and on) , which was indicated quite clearly in that issue as being their (or Detloff's) rating/opinion of the 80 best fighters since their first first issue dated Feb of 1922, which would obviously disqualify both Welsh & Kilbane from an appearance in that issue, because, you know...with the exception of the very last fight of each of their careers, they fought their entire career before The Ring came into being.

But speaking of irony and I'm only bringing this up because you brought up the fight in question, what I do find "ironic" is how the whole momemtum of the Hernandez/Nelson fight somehow changed completely once Nelson landed that right hand to Hernandez' throat well after the bell to end the 7th round...Up to that point in the fight Hernandez had things going his way and he held a very clear advantage over Nelson over the first half of the fight by boxing him and keeping him out at the end of the jab (Nelson came on "strong" after that, Hernandez became more reluctant, and that "rally" by Nelson made it very close at the end of twelve).

Azumah Nelson was a very good fighter, though, and I would agree that his longevity at the upper levels of boxing makes him a "great" fighter in history. But, having followed him all throughout his pro career, there wasn't one occasion where I ever thought of him as one of the very elite p4p fighters in the sport at any time in his career, as he was always, at the very most, one of the guys that would fill out a bottom position on such a list of ten from me...While Nelson has defeated his share of "good" opponents thoughout out his career (and not always convincingly...a few very close fights went his way, as well), especially at 130, I'm just cross-referencing his record against the year-end p4p rankings from his time, and I see that he's never once won a fight against someone who was considered one of the p4p ten best in the sport at the time he fought them. If you're counting Jeff Fenech as Nelson's best win then you got to know that that win by Nelson was coming against a fighter who himself was also likely past his best, suffering from well known chronic hand problems, and may have even lost his "heart" for the sport after the first Nelson fight, as I've heard reported before (in addition to looking "off" right from the get-go in the rematch, Fenech also didn't do anything of note after the Nelson fight besides get himself knocked out a couple of times by guys that he likely eats up at his best).

And hey...a "green" Nelson may have given Sanchez a good fight before Sal took over late, but Sanchez was known to do that in the past, as evidence by the Patrick Ford fight, who incidently and if he had a little "luck" on his side, could've very well gotten the decision over Sanchez in their fight as he confused and bettered Sal for much of the first half of the fight with his patient outside boxing from long range and behind the jab & legs...Sanchez eventually figured out Ford's style (much like he did Nelson's) and had some good success in winning most of the rounds in the late goings, but it was still a very tight and close fight when the 15 rounds were up. Whether it be against an inexperienced pro (Nelson, Ford, and Laporte, who also gave Sanchez some anxious moments early in that fight before Sal again took over late) or against another who wasn't expected to challenge him much (Cowdell), Sanchez had his tendencies to fight down to just above his opponent's level, as well as a proven ability to fight amazingly well when the odds weren't so much in his favour (Gomez and Lopez).

While I'm not meaning to say that both Ford & Nelson were on the same level at featherweight, because I, no doubt, do have a higher opinion of Nelson as a fighter, I also can't say that I'm nearly impressed enough to say that Sanchez/Nelson fight is any great indication that Nelson was an elite "all-timer" at featherweight when a percieved inferior fighter (Ford) at roughly the same career stage is also going right down to the wire with Sanchez and if anything is even doing better against Sal than did Nelson...Beyond the Sanchez fight, a victory over a washed up Gomez and wins over the likes of Villasana, Cabrera and Cowdell just don't do it for me, and Nelson is just not someone I'm ever going to pick as one of the ten greatest featherweight or anything overly close to that...Top 20, maybe.

And I only brought up The Ring's (Detloff's) featherweight ratings because you seem to spout off about their (Detloff's) "top 80" issue with much frequency and seem to like to back up your own "opinion" with their's in that issue, so I thought you'd maybe like to take a gander at another one of their all-time ratings that were pertaining to the subject...But on that topic and seeing as you how felt the need to state that The Ring "clearly think Pernell Whitaker is better than your god Ike Williams, etc., etc.", you do know that they have put out other special ratings issues in recent years, including their "top 50 of the last 50 years" that was published in the late 1990's and features at least Ike Williams (slotted in 10th) being rated ahead of Whitaker (slotted in 21st) in that issue?

Anyways, I don't know if I asked you any questions in this post, but if I did, please keep up your normal practice of not answering them directly because this is going to be my last post to you for quite a time, as I have absolutely no immediate interest at all in having any further discussions with you on here.
how was gomez washed up, it was only his 2nd loss. Dont worry pernell still has chavez. If you dont count chavez as an elite all timer, then there is somethign wrong with you.

Chavez vs whitaker is like one of the most important fights ever. This was the last time that two men Literally fought each other to determine who is #1 pound for pound in the world. You cant have a superfight bigger than that. Everyone wanted to see these two legends go at it and determine who is superior. Yogi, i think pernell proved to you that he was indeed superior to his dance partner, the Great julio cesar chavez.

azumah nelson is top 10 at featherweight, i have talked with many people regarding this and they usually hold nelson in a higher regard than the people u are bragging about.

When i do these debates, its just for fun. If you want to cry about it and say that you are done talking, then go ahead.

In my honest opinion, i think that the way you guys rank ur top p4p boxers of all times, is based on the amount of respect from the writers of thier own era. You are a hockey fan like me, maurice richard was the big rockstar in his days and everybody loved him, the guy has a huge legacy. Many "experts" rank him among the best players of all times. Would i call him a better overall hockey player than jagr or frosberg, no way, dream on. They are by far, superior. I still respect the rocket though, hes important to the history of the sport.

Last edited by brownpimp88; 02-27-2007 at 02:47 AM.
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Old 08-04-2020, 10:37 PM #42
QueensburyRules QueensburyRules is online now
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Originally Posted by Benny Leonard View Post
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Benny Leonard, The Ghetto Wizard…“The Brainiest of All Boxers”

By: Monte D. Cox






Benny Leonard was not only one of the greatest lightweights of all time, he was one of history’s greatest pound for pound fighters. Benny, a Jewish boxer born Benjamin Leiner, turned pro at age 15. He won the World Lightweight Championship at age 21 and held it for nearly 7 years between 1917-1925 when he retired unbeaten as champion while at the peak of his power. His official record is 85-5-1 121 No Decisions with 69 knockouts. His record with newspaper verdicts, according to one source, is 180-21-6-6ND 69 Ko’s.

Bodner stated, (1997 pp 55-56) "Leonard had a truly remarkable record. He was one of the greatest master boxers of all time."

The Ghetto Wizard was a fleet footed mobile boxer with a strong punch and liked to set a fast pace. He had excellent hand speed and was a clever two-handed hitter. He had a piston like left jab, a classic right cross and was an accomplished combination puncher. Leonard also loved to train and never entered the ring in less than top condition. He made a real science of the sport studying feints, shifts, and defensive moves for hours at a time in the gym. He was master who rarely lost a round in the vast majority of his fights.

Gilbert Odd wrote, (1974 p 126) “Leonard was coolness itself in the ring, finishing off a beaten opponent with cold fury, recovering quickly when hurt and talking himself out of trouble. Because he punched correctly he never suffered a hand injury; because he knew how to defend himself, he usually left the ring unmarked, because he kept himself in peak of condition he could travel ten fast rounds and look as fresh as when he started.”

His competition reads like a who’s who of the great fighters of the teens and twenties including; Johnny Dundee (Featherweight champion 1922-1923, 1923-1924 and Jr. Lightweight champion 1921-1923 and 1923-1924), the great rope fighter whom he met 8 times; Freddie Welsh (Lightweight champion 1914-1916) from whom he won the title, clever former champion Willie Ritchie (lightweight champion 1912-1914), Johnny Kilbane (Featherweight Champion 1912-1923), hard hitting Rocky Kansas (Lightweight champion 1925-1926) and the great southpaw Lew Tendler who is considered one of the best fighters to have never won a title. Leonard also defeated top lightweight contenders such as Ritchie Mitchell, Patsy Cline, Joe Welling and left hook artist Charley White.

Leonard was in many ways the Muhammad Ali of the 135-pounders, defeating what Nat Fleischer called, “a field of the greatest lightweights that ever appeared at one time in the division” (Suster p 55). When Leonard was fighting there were nearly 90 fight clubs in New York State and 20 fight cards a week in New York City. Boxing in the teens and twenties, along with baseball, was the most popular sport in America. There were more competitors and therefore a larger talent pool. Leonard came along when the lightweight division was stacked full of highly skilled fighters and punchers and he was the best among them. He fought them all and fought often. The year he won the title he fought 29 times. Leonard was a very smart, clever, and experienced fighter.

Jersey Jones agrees saying (Ring Magazine Jul. 1947), “Leonard was one of the all time greats of the ring. A magnificent boxer, a deadly puncher, a brilliant ring strategist, and an extraordinary showman, Benny had to be a real champion in every sense of the word, to rule over the most formidable array of challengers in the annals of the lightweight division.”

One of Leonard's toughest opponent's was the great southpaw slugger Lew Tendler. On July 27, 1922, 60,000 screaming fans watched the two great fighters go at it in a 12 round non-title bout. In the first round a powerful left rocked Leonard. In the third Leonard's nose was bleeding. In the 8th Lew dropped Benny to one knee. Leonard was in trouble but Benny started talking to him and convinced him he wasn't hurt. Lew hesitated and Benny survived the round. It went the distance to a 12 round no-decision but Leonard would later say that Lew gave him "the worst licking I ever had in my life the first time we fought." In the rematch, for the championship the following year, Leonard proved he had learned his lesson.
- -Benny fell outta fashion with moderns.

Why?
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Old 08-05-2020, 02:23 AM #43
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Originally Posted by QueensburyRules View Post
- -Benny fell outta fashion with moderns.

Why?
Boxing is soooo much about the times..ah… so much. (picture Mickey) Yesterdays long agos champion would last few rounds against a champion of todays. Especially with the size of todays fighters.

When in his own time he would battle as any gentleman would............ for the money! ............... Rockin'
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Old 08-06-2020, 01:39 PM #44
Willie Pep 229 Willie Pep 229 is offline
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Originally Posted by QueensburyRules View Post
- -Benny fell outta fashion with moderns.

Why?
Because we are an iconoclastic culture and he spent too much time at the top; just tearing down statues. [See Dempsey.]

He will be back with a different generation, one with a different cultural outlook; different values.
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Old 08-06-2020, 05:13 PM #45
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Originally Posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post
Because we are an iconoclastic culture and he spent too much time at the top; just tearing down statues. [See Dempsey.]

He will be back with a different generation, one with a different cultural outlook; different values.
- -Perhaps his Ghetto Wizard moniker is too politically impolitic in this super hygienic Corona Virus era.
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Old 08-06-2020, 07:07 PM #46
The Old LefHook The Old LefHook is offline
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Look at our star halfwit, folks, arguing with and answering folks many of whom are long dead or left the forum years ago. No one who is actually alive wants to talk to him. At least he figured that out.
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Old 08-06-2020, 07:55 PM #47
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBomber View Post
Thats cause he was jewish, We always try to create a freakin system and put it all to science, when we do anything
Get a corn beef sandwich in a regular place... Meh. Go to a Jewish deli!!! French fries? meh... maybe if double fried, cold water dipped... But compared to a Knish?!!! Even the word makes one hungry!

European Jews? they notices the fat on the chicken... instead of throwing it away, they mixed it with matza meal! Derma! Poison to eat too much... But man oh man!! Yummy!

The corn beef and pastrami has to be kept at a good temp, slowly simmering, and it has to be sliced thin and piled high...

the Knish takes a Bisle (Yiddish for little bit) of celery salt, and a few spices!

Don't even ger me started on the egg cream. The most refreshing tonic known to some of us. How did the jews figure that one out? Its called an egg cream and has neither egg, nor cream... the ingrediants? milk, seltzer and Ubets chocolate syrup don't sound good... But when mixed, with ice cold seltzer... You done think you went to heaven.

Yes its all in developing creativity, fondness for the practice, whether it be boxing, cooking, whatever. I think that Kosher laws actually help with the food prep because it makes the chefs think outside the box. No!! you cannot just slather mayo and cover that steak sandwich with cheese! Lol.
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Old 08-09-2020, 08:43 AM #48
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is offline
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Originally Posted by QueensburyRules View Post
- -Benny fell outta fashion with moderns.

Why?
You don't think he was a little overrated to begin with?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post
Because we are an iconoclastic culture and he spent too much time at the top; just tearing down statues. [See Dempsey.]

He will be back with a different generation, one with a different cultural outlook; different values.
This.


I firmly believe, even before Armstrong, he was one of the first crafted sports heroes. Not a complete sham, like Attell, but largely a product of marketing. I am not really sure he was as much of a "wizard" or defensive maestro as he is made out to have been. And his record/quality of competition wasn't that incredible relative to the times.

Still, there's no doubting he was a phenomenal fighter. Much more of a Joe Louis-type than a Willie Pep-type, but a great fighter.

He suffers because he's not Black and virtually no footage exists of him. Conversely, Ray Robinson's P4P moniker stuck because he heralded in the television era, and coincided with the lead-up to the Civil Rights movement. So when a guy like Ali says Robinson was the best ever, it sticks better.
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