Better resume: Naoya Inoue or "Gallo" Estrada?

[Mexican_Puppet]

I wouldn't say either Cuadras or Viloria were clearly better than the best guys on Inoue's resume, though of course Narvaez was well past his best when he fought Inoue...

And as you point out, Estrada does have 2 Ls of which one has been avenged though I get that you could say he beat the guy who beat the guy.. thing is Inoue doesn't have losses. Like I say I don't do P4P and besides recognise that folk have many different ways of figuring it, but if you choose to believe that El Gallo is the better or more proven fighter then no-one can prove otherwise. We just gotta hope that maybe these two fantastic fighters will duke it out one of these days - hopefully sooner rather than later.

I see that you does not know much about those weights.

You need arguments.

Viloria was top-15 P4P fighter at the time that Estrada schooled him , was múltiple champion of the world and King of the 112, he was in the fight of the year too. And was fighting in China.

Cuadras beat Sor and gave Román González hell in a very competitive fight where Román face was destroyed, of course, he ducked the rematch that' HBO offered him

Cuadras vs Estrada was another great competitive fight, the knockdown was the difference

Cuadras was competitive against P4P level fighters

Did you see the fight of Rodríguez against Moloney?

Rodríguez barely won that fight.

Narváez was past his prime and Lost all the rounds against Donaire and Tete, was K.Od in 3 minutes by Inoue and barely won the fight against Orucuta in the rematch, wich is his best win


It's a fact.

Cuadras is better than the best win of Inoue.


Inoue ducked Román González too years ago.

What's your opinión about this?

I can give you a link about this.

[Citizen Koba]

I see that you does not know much about those weights.

You need arguments.

Viloria was top-15 P4P fighter at the time that Estrada schooled him , was múltiple champion of the world and King of the 112, he was in the fight of the year too. And was fighting in China.

Cuadras beat Sor and gave Román González hell in a very competitive fight where Román face was destroyed, of course, he ducked the rematch that' HBO offered him

Cuadras vs Estrada was another great competitive fight, the knockdown was the difference

Cuadras was competitive against P4P level fighters

Did you see the fight of Rodríguez against Moloney?

Rodríguez barely won that fight.

Narváez was past his prime and Lost all the rounds against Donaire and Tete, was K.Od in 3 minutes by Inoue and barely won the fight against Orucuta in the rematch, wich is his best win


It's a fact.

Cuadras is better than the best win of Inoue.


Inoue ducked Román González too years ago.

What's your opinión about this?

I can give you a link about this.

You would be correct that I'm not really a student of the lower weight classes, but since I've already acknowledged that Estrada has the better resume of the pair I'm not quite sure where you want to go with this. What are you trying to say - that El Gallo's resume is not just better but incomparably better, even in spite of his losses? That far I'm not willing to go... I can write a long ass post comparing their relative resumes if you want but suffice to say both have beaten guys considered the best in their relative divisions more than once which is ultimately all you can ask. Estrada has the better resume but has also looked less dominant and has losses. I'm not sure what else there is to add.


EDIT: And yeah. I ain't one of the guys who get in involved in this whole 'ducking' thing, so, yeah. The reasons fights get made (or fail to do so) are very rarely to do with fighters being scared of each other (or of losing) and very often to do with timing, promotional issues, relative worth and so on... y'know.... rational stuff. You want to get in the business of calling pro fighters 'duckers' and the suchlike I'm sure there's plenty of folk around here who will indulge you, but I ain't one of 'em.

[Mexican_Puppet]

You would be correct that I'm not really a student of the lower weight classes, but since I've already acknowledged that Estrada has the better resume of the pair I'm not quite sure where you want to go with this. What are you trying to say - that El Gallo's resume is not just better but incomparably better, even in spite of his losses? That far I'm not willing to go... I can write a long ass post comparing their relative resumes if you want but suffice to say both have beaten guys considered the best in their relative divisions more than once which is ultimately all you can ask. Estrada has the better resume but has also looked less dominant and has losses. I'm not sure what else there is to add.

Man

Two of his L's were avenged, like Lennox Lewis did

And he was dominant in those rematch.

First, he K.O'd Sánchez Jr, after that , Sánchez was champion of the world in 115 pounds, make some defensa and was near to K.O Tete in a hell of a war years ago.

He schooled Rungvisai too.

It's not the same fight with guys like Viloria, Rungvisai, Cuadras, González that fight with the trash fighters that Inoue is facing.

Estrada went down 4 pounds to fight González at 22 years

Inoue ducked González at 22 years old.


What's your opinión about Inoue ducking González fight?

At that time, he was two division champion of the world

[ShoulderRoll]

Inoue ducked Román González too years ago.

What's your opinión about this?

I can give you a link about this.

Post the link. Let's see if it's true.

[Mexican_Puppet]

Post the link. Let's see if it's true.

Do you know spanish?

https://boxeomundial.com/naoya-inoue...tito-gonzalez/


He said that he was too green to fight with Gonzalez (he was two division champion at the time).

That he needed 4 fights more.

He was 22 years and múltiple champion

Inoue and González were champions of Teiken of Akihiro Honda .

The negotiations stopped because Honda and Inoue team never wanted that fight

Gonzalez wanted the fight because he knows the fight would make good money in Japan because he was a famous fighter there

[D4thincarnation]

Estrada, but if they fight I got Inoue

[Citizen Koba]

Man

Two of his L's were avenged, like Lennox Lewis did

And he was dominant in those rematch.

First, he K.O'd Sánchez Jr, after that , Sánchez was champion of the world in 115 pounds, make some defensa and was near to K.O Tete in a hell of a war years ago.

He schooled Rungvisai too.

It's not the same fight with guys like Viloria, Rungvisai, Cuadras, González that fight with the trash fighters that Inoue is facing.

Estrada went down 4 pounds to fight González at 22 years

Inoue ducked González at 22 years old.


What's your opinión about Inoue ducking González fight?

At that time, he was two division champion of the world

WRT the ducking thing read the edit I wrote on my previous post.

With regards to calling recognised top fighters in their divisions 'trash', I get that first and foremost your agenda is nationalistic, but you lend more credibility to your arguments if you show the intellectual integrity of acknowledging that many of Inoue's opponents were highly regarded (including 2 divisional #1s) at the time he fought 'em.

Once again, I'm not quite clear where you're going with this. Inoue's resume is very good - especially considering the brevity of his career. Estrada's is better. Are you disagreeing?

[drablj]

let's debunk this myth of ducking.
naoya turns pro at 108 and becomes a champion there in 2014. there's clearly no ducking until then.
after 1 defense, naoya is growing and wants to move up. gonzalez became a champion at 112 in september and immediately agrees a defense in november. naoya wants to fight at the end of december as is popular in japan. gonzalez wants one defense in nicaragua. so surely nothing can be agreed in that timeframe between these 2.
naoya decides (for whatever reason) to move up to 115 and not 112 and to fight number 1 there. i don't know how can someone criticize 21 year old for doing this. injured hand in that fight kept him on the sidelines for a year. unfortunatelly, carmona and parrenas had an eliminator which was a draw so naoya had 2 mandatories in a row. he can either vacate his title at 115 and move down to 112 to fight for less money (less for him) as a non-champion or defend his title at 115 against the 2 mandatories. he does just that. in his defense against carmona, he injures his hand again.
in the meantime, chocolatito becomes highly regarded (which he deserved) and agrees a fight with cuadras for the most money available at the time. that's the only timeframe when naoya and gonzalez could have fought. but hbo offered the most money for cuadras - gonzalez at 115. you really can't blame any fighter for this.
that's when naoya fought 5 easy fights in a row. why? because, as i said, gonzalez could either fight cuadras again or rungvisai or be stripped. a belt he fought so hard to win and achieve a dream even his idol arguello couldn't. after that, gonzalez lost twice to rungvisai. everybody was chasing choco. he was a star in the lower weight classes and a fight with him would make you the most money. nobody was in a hurry to fight inoue in that situation. if choco won his 1st fight with rungvisai, i think we would get naoya - choco fight in 2017. but he lost. after his second loss, he went into a slump. his desire was gone, he wasn't a champion and it was pointless for inoue to fight him then. so now cuadras and gonzalez have problems and rungvisai and estrada are locked to fight each other. there are no great fights at 115 for naoya and it's difficult to make weight. he decides to move up. how can someone criticize this i don't know. it would be worse if he fought more weak opponents after 5 in a row.

summary: the only time when naoya inoue and roman gonzalez could have fought was in the second half of 2016. if gonzalez decided to fight naoya instead of cuadras and for less money. that IS NOT ducking. someone can say that naoya wasn't ready for gonzalez at some particular moment but it's not the same as ducking. we recently had a thread about why mosley - trinidad fight never happened. this is similar.

side note: i don't care about nationalities, religion, skin colour, networks, promoters.

[Mexican_Puppet]

WRT the ducking thing read the edit I wrote on my previous post.

With regards to calling recognised top fighters in their divisions 'trash', I get that first and foremost your agenda is nationalistic, but you lend more credibility to your arguments if you show the intellectual integrity of acknowledging that many of Inoue's opponents were highly regarded (including 2 divisional #1s) at the time he fought 'em.

Once again, I'm not quite clear where you're going with this. Inoue's resume is very good - especially considering the brevity of his career. Estrada's is better. Are you disagreeing?

I'm joking with that "trash" adjective.

I know, Payano, McDonnell and Rodríguez are not bad fighters, they are good fighters but they are not elite level. And they does not have much achievements and good wins

Best win of Rodríguez is a close win against Moloney. For example.

They are levels below of Cuadras.

And it's not fair compare how good Inoue looked against him and how Estrada looked against much better rivals.

Brevity does not care, Inoue had a great amateur career and till this moment, he has a soft career without great rivals.

I like Inoue, he is a great fighter and I said in other forum that he has the ceil to be the best fighter from Japan and the second best of Asia (first place Pacquiao).

But the ultimate hype about him is INSANE.

Fans are disrespecting other fighters saying "Inoue would kill him in two rounds" just because he K.O'd some fighters that are not great fighters .

This was exactly what happened with GGG before Jacobs and canelo fights

Fu.ck, people is saying Inoue would kill Valdez or he Will fight in 147 pounds...


It's not the fault of Inoue but this is insane.

[Mexican_Puppet]

let's debunk this myth of ducking.
naoya turns pro at 108 and becomes a champion there in 2014. there's clearly no ducking until then.
after 1 defense, naoya is growing and wants to move up. gonzalez became a champion at 112 in september and immediately agrees a defense in november. naoya wants to fight at the end of december as is popular in japan. gonzalez wants one defense in nicaragua. so surely nothing can be agreed in that timeframe between these 2.
naoya decides (for whatever reason) to move up to 115 and not 112 and to fight number 1 there. i don't know how can someone criticize 21 year old for doing this. injured hand in that fight kept him on the sidelines for a year. unfortunatelly, carmona and parrenas had an eliminator which was a draw so naoya had 2 mandatories in a row. he can either vacate his title at 115 and move down to 112 to fight for less money (less for him) as a non-champion or defend his title at 115 against the 2 mandatories. he does just that. in his defense against carmona, he injures his hand again.
in the meantime, chocolatito becomes highly regarded (which he deserved) and agrees a fight with cuadras for the most money available at the time. that's the only timeframe when naoya and gonzalez could have fought. but hbo offered the most money for cuadras - gonzalez at 115. you really can't blame any fighter for this.
that's when naoya fought 5 easy fights in a row. why? because, as i said, gonzalez could either fight cuadras again or rungvisai or be stripped. a belt he fought so hard to win and achieve a dream even his idol arguello couldn't. after that, gonzalez lost twice to rungvisai. everybody was chasing choco. he was a star in the lower weight classes and a fight with him would make you the most money. nobody was in a hurry to fight inoue in that situation. if choco won his 1st fight with rungvisai, i think we would get naoya - choco fight in 2017. but he lost. after his second loss, he went into a slump. his desire was gone, he wasn't a champion and it was pointless for inoue to fight him then. so now cuadras and gonzalez have problems and rungvisai and estrada are locked to fight each other. there are no great fights at 115 for naoya and it's difficult to make weight. he decides to move up. how can someone criticize this i don't know. it would be worse if he fought more weak opponents after 5 in a row.

summary: the only time when naoya inoue and roman gonzalez could have fought was in the second half of 2016. if gonzalez decided to fight naoya instead of cuadras and for less money. that IS NOT ducking. someone can say that naoya wasn't ready for gonzalez at some particular moment but it's not the same as ducking. we recently had a thread about why mosley - trinidad fight never happened. this is similar.

side note: i don't care about nationalities, religion, skin colour, networks, promoters.

The same Inoue team and the same fighter desisted to fight against González

They said he was too green

When you are a champion you are not too green

At the same time Estrada went down 4 pounds to fight a prime González and then he fought against a prime Viloria