I'm sorry but i can't see Liston as a great or even good boxer ?

[QueensburyRules]

- -Remember a great story about Ali and Sonny commiserating with each other outside of a boxing commish, Cali I seem to recall.

Ali was trying to become reinstated after his strippage and Sonny was in his perpetual comeback after his unofficial ban because of the 2 Ali farces.

Ali came outside for some fresh air to find Sonny on a bench awaiting his turn at the inquisition and sat down for heart to heart dialogue.

Musta been fascinating!

[giant_king]

Yea he was long gone but his mob wasn't.new blood took over.

[clemenza]

Going the distance with top HWs so he was tough? so are thousands of others.

Its like me in 10 years singing AJ praises for beating a Kevin Johnson or something daft.
Eddie Machen wasn't anything more than a solid fighter that was a farcry from being world level. Only fighters in this era are bigged up like this in a frankly awful attempt of pushing an agenda.
You don't and won't hear anybody talking up guys of this calibre that Ali, Holyfield, Foreman etc beat because they have probably 15-20+ better wins worth praising
A guy like Machen likely isn't in any true top 10 HWs 10 best wins.

Listons record is terrible he has one stand out win against a guy who was 190 soaking wet with no chin, two fringe contender types and the rest were a bunch of absolute nobodies. Not another notable name what so ever.
He lost too multiple bums too, he was put on his ass by multiple.

He was sickeningly overrated at the time and unbelievably more so today.

His best wins , his only semi notable wins after Patterson are Machen and Folley like lets be real he doesn't even rank ahead of at least several current HWs today.
Noway is he ranked ahead of Fury, AJ, Povetkin and certainly not Wlad.

They don't even stack up against the CWs where they'd be fighting today.

Listons resume is shocking. I have no idea why people pretend he's a top 5-10 HW in any sense. Resume, H2H or whatever

Povetkin,
Really. I guess his resume of victory will land him in boxing immortality.
Wladamir, good solid champion, but he’s not going to make you forget about Muhammad Ali or Jack Johnson or Dempsey anytime soon.
I can’t get the ass kicking Pretoria Corrie Sanders out of my mind.

[Tom Cruise]

Machen and Folley are hardly 'excellent' wins who did Eddie Machen ever beat? He lost everytime he stepped up.
Folley wasn't close to elite either beating a pre-prime Foster and a few gatekeeper\contenders.

The only world class fighter Liston beat was an undersized, chinny Floyd Patterson.

His resume isn't much if any better than Wilders and I'm serious. Listons resume is ****!
He's not an ATG or top 10 HW.

Machen and Folley were excellent contenders. Spent nearly a decade each in the top 10 and both amassed decent resumes.

Sonny Liston has been a little overrated in the past, but he was an excellent HW who did the bulk of his work before he won the title. I wouldnt have him top 10, but he is in the group below that knocking on the door

On top of Machen and Folley, he also has wins over Nino Valdez (a perrenial top contender) who he knocked out in 3, top 10 contenders such as Cleveland Williams, Wayne Bethea, Roy Harris and Mike Dejohn, and 2 knock out wins over the HW champion of the world Floyd Patterson, who not only was a really good champion when Liston beat him, also came back and won a good few more top fights (and was robbed in a couple too) after he was beaten as well.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Machen and Folley were excellent contenders. Spent nearly a decade each in the top 10 and both amassed decent resumes.

Sonny Liston has been a little overrated in the past, but he was an excellent HW who did the bulk of his work before he won the title. I wouldnt have him top 10, but he is in the group below that knocking on the door

On top of Machen and Folley, he also has wins over Nino Valdez (a perrenial top contender) who he knocked out in 3, top 10 contenders such as Cleveland Williams, Wayne Bethea, Roy Harris and Mike Dejohn, and 2 knock out wins over the HW champion of the world Floyd Patterson, who not only was a really good champion when Liston beat him, also came back and won a good few more top fights (and was robbed in a couple too) after he was beaten as well.

yes, we all know how to use BocRec. But we've also seen the footage. The opponents aren't necessarily terrible, but there's no one stellar. Probably, Liston was nearing his expiration date just as he was hitting his professional stride, and that had a lot to him losing to the single stand-out name on his record.

He's a lot like Gene Tunney in that his record isn't terrific; arguably it's gaudy. But the footage suggests something special.


I have always wondered how Tunney would have fared if he were in Ali's place against Liston. I can't be certain about the outcome, but the match-up certainly is epic.

[Tom Cruise]

yes, we all know how to use BocRec. But we've also seen the footage. The opponents aren't necessarily terrible, but there's no one stellar. Probably, Liston was nearing his expiration date just as he was hitting his professional stride.

He's a lot like Gene Tunney in that regard.


I have always wondered how Tunney would have fared if he were in Ali's place against Liston. I can't be certain about the outcome, but the match-up certainly is epic.

Ive watched as much as I can my brother. A long with studying their records.

Floyd Patterson wasn't a 'stellar win'? Hell he was only the HW champion of the World, who later came back in his second (arguably better) run to be a top contender again. Liston demolished him twice.

Not sure that statement works for Tunney bearing in mind he was a great LHW before he stepped up. Not like he was just hitting his proffessional stride. Gene Tunney would have had a great shout vs Liston, Tunney would have achieved a lot more at HW if he hadn't retired on top and his style was all wrong for Liston just like Ali's was.

[dan_cov]

There's too much stock put on rankings. These governing bodies have been corrupt for decades. Record padding was every bit as rife if not more so as they fought more often then. A lot of the time putting a win streak together vs journeymen got you top 10 not much different to Anthony Yarde and his baffling rankings lol
Even if some are deserved I don't feel it means a great deal take Crolla for example, top 10 for a while maybe top 5 former champ yet he's just not a very good fighter and anyone truly at world level or near should rather effortlessly dispatch him.

Valdes wasn't world class even at his best despite beating a past prime Charles and was right at the end of his career when he fought Sonny.
Bethea was nothing but a journeyman same with DeJohn they lost everytime they stepped up and probably have double digit losses to fellow journeymen in their prime. No idea how either was ever considered top 10 or even close.

He has two decent wins over Patterson who was small and chinny.
Folley and Machen were C level, Cleveland Williams maybe also the rest are journeymen at best.
Look at Wlad and Holmes two barely top 10 HWs in weak eras and look at their resumes compared.

Most claim Mike Tysons not top 10 so hows Liston and arguably top 5? Mikes resume, accomplishments, skillsets vastly superior.

[dan_cov]

I'm not sure I'd even put him over Patterson despite beating him twice.
Nevermind Louis, Holmes, Ali, Frazier, Norton, Foreman, Holyfield, Lewis, Wlad, Johnson, Fury, AJ, Tyson, Marciano, Dempsey, Tunney.

He's probably around 20th somewhere near Vitali

[QueensburyRules]

Wladamir, good solid champion, but he’s not going to make you forget about Muhammad Ali or Jack Johnson or Dempsey anytime soon.
I can’t get the ass kicking Pretoria Corrie Sanders out of my mind.

- -Wlad holds the heavy title record for fighting, beating, and KOing more lefties than anyone, more than 2-5th combined.

I still remember how soccer player Mildenberger had Howie choking on his toupee when he had Ali reeling.

Corrie bigger, stronger, and far more athletic than Ali or Mildy. Had there not been an unofficial ban on South African fighters then, Corrie woulda grabbed and held a belt much sooner, but rugby and golf paid better and he could stay at home more to help raise his family, so boxing was just a sorta fun hobby he could enjoy with easy early KOs.

[clemenza]

- -Wlad holds the heavy title record for fighting, beating, and KOing more lefties than anyone, more than 2-5th combined.

I still remember how soccer player Mildenberger had Howie choking on his toupee when he had Ali reeling.

Corrie bigger, stronger, and far more athletic than Ali or Mildy. Had there not been an unofficial ban on South African fighters then, Corrie woulda grabbed and held a belt much sooner, but rugby and golf paid better and he could stay at home more to help raise his family, so boxing was just a sorta fun hobby he could enjoy with easy early KOs.

I’m not sure what ban your talking about. I was at the Corrie Sanders vs Rahman fight at Bally’s Atlantic City and I saw Sanders hand speed from about 30 feet away and he was impressive.
Corrie conditioning was the issue that night if I remember, he was busting Rahman up and just Tanked out of gas.
That night I had a great conversation with former light weight champion Phillip Holiday who was past his prime and was on the undercard.
He was very disappointed with Corrie training leading up to the fight. I don’t want to tool on a man who passed away to much.
Holiday told me Corrie liked to hunt , play golf and beat up journeyman South African Heavyweights back home because it paid well.
He said Corrie was wasting his talent and how when they where Amateurs he destroyed Francois Botha like 3-4 times knocking him out each time.
Going back to Wladamir how do you explain Lamon Brewster.
At least sanders could hit and was a southpaw with fast hands.
Lamon Brewster!!!!!!!
Come on Queensburied