ATG's: Best technical pressure fighter of any era?

[TheGreatA]

Don't forget though that Leonard wasn't really a mover in any of his previous fights nor afterwards except perhaps against Hagler. Being "fleet-footed" was not truly his fight but he did use that style in the rematch against Duran.

Leonard's camp felt he was too strong, too fast and too powerful for the older, smaller Duran. Leonard did try to use movement in the middle rounds but he had absorbed trendemous body punishment and Duran's feints had him flinching everytime. It was too late to make any real adjustments at that point, he had been dragged into a brawl.

I believe there was some kind of an interview with Leonard and Cosell discussing the first Duran fight, in which Leonard said Duran prevented him from dancing in the ring with his relentless pressure. Leonard did not say that he fought the wrong fight, he said he wasn't strong enough to handle Duran in the clinches the first time.

This is after the second fight:


5:20









Leonard moving but being bothered by Hearns' longer reach, turning stalker and regaining control of the fight:

[GJC]

I do agree that Duran's lack of preparation contributed to his performance and retirement in the second fight. But I dont think a well prepared Duran would have been happy boxing a fleet footed Leonard, although I still think it would be another close fight.

There was a long way to go in the fight when Duran quit and the referees scoring was 66-68,66-68 and 66-67 which as I recall doesn't seem to far out of whack. It was by no means impossible for Duran to have turned that fight round but he was not mentally or physically prepared.
As Poet rightly said Duran in the 1st fight would have been a match for any ATG welter, in the second fight however I think any half decent welter would have beaten him , he just wasn't "on" that night.
Not to take away from Leonard, it is up to Duran to get himself in shape.
I always give Leonard a lot of credit for the 1st fight, he fought a prime focased in shape Duran at his own game and wasn't far off winning.

[Steak]

I dont get why it matters if Leonard used the ring or not in the first fight.

for the most part, the biggest success Duran had was with counter shots. the right hand over the jab was one of his greatest weapons in the fight, and his left hooks worked well when Leonard tried to flurry.

every time Leonard tried to jab Duran off him while moving, Duran would either close the distance or land the right hand. in a way, he used Leonard's boxing strategy against him.

and unless Im mistaken, Im pretty sure that Leonard DID use the ring for the first round, but then got shaky legged by a left hook in the 2nd round when Leonard was trying to evade Duran's right hand. Duran capitalized on it, and hurt Leonard with body shots not too long after, and Leonard simply couldnt get away after that.

personally, Ive always thought of Duran as more of a counter fighter than a pressure fighter. If someone simply refused to punch(like Lou Bizzaro or Edwin Viruet), it took a long time for Duran to catch up to them.

Chavez on the other hand murdered guys that didnt punch back, like he did with Camacho, Lonnie Smith and John Duplessis, among others. bad beatings. he had a harder time against volume punchers than anything else.

[machotime]

Chavez, Armstrong, Duran

[them_apples]

I think it was Roberto Duran by a long mile. In his prime, he was the best fighter ever who kept coming forward. His skills and relentlessness took him to 15 round decisions of some of the best fleat footed guys ever to have boxed, including SRL. SRL even said in an interview (on Beyond the Glory) that he saw Duran getting fat and out of shape, so decided to get a rematch right then at that moment so he could be guaranteed a win. Duran on top of his game would have beaten him again. Discuss.

not even just in the pressure area, I think he was more technically skilled prime for prime than Leonard in general, but he couldn't fill in a nicely in the higher weight divisions due to his height, reach (it hindered his handspeed bulking up, Leonard kept his).

[TheGreatA]

I dont get why it matters if Leonard used the ring or not in the first fight.

for the most part, the biggest success Duran had was with counter shots. the right hand over the jab was one of his greatest weapons in the fight, and his left hooks worked well when Leonard tried to flurry.

every time Leonard tried to jab Duran off him while moving, Duran would either close the distance or land the right hand. in a way, he used Leonard's boxing strategy against him.

and unless Im mistaken, Im pretty sure that Leonard DID use the ring for the first round, but then got shaky legged by a left hook in the 2nd round when Leonard was trying to evade Duran's right hand. Duran capitalized on it, and hurt Leonard with body shots not too long after, and Leonard simply couldnt get away after that.

personally, Ive always thought of Duran as more of a counter fighter than a pressure fighter. If someone simply refused to punch(like Lou Bizzaro or Edwin Viruet), it took a long time for Duran to catch up to them.

Chavez on the other hand murdered guys that didnt punch back, like he did with Camacho, Lonnie Smith and John Duplessis, among others. bad beatings. he had a harder time against volume punchers than anything else.

I think Duran was unquestionably a pressure fighter but not necessarily in the mold of Frazier/Armstrong.

Dick Tiger was the same, he came forward all the time and was a trendemously strong inside fighter but if you didn't bring the fight to him, it would take him a long time to catch up, much like Duran in some of his fights.

To be fair to Duran though, Bizzaro just ran and clinched at every opportunity, trying nothing but to survive while Viruet was known for a granite chin.

Duran very early on in his career did announce his disdain for fighters who "ran". It frustrated him a lot but during his prime he was patient and always in good condition unlike later on in his career when he simply didn't have it in him to chase opponents all over the ring.

[Sugarj]

Some good comments and opinions here folks, liking the thread!

Granted, Duran was special in Montreal! Possibly his career peak, never quite as good again although the Moore and Berkley fights were good to watch.

As for some other great pressure fighters, an early Barrera was pretty deadly. Steve Collins was full of beans for the second Eubank fight, like a wild man, no finess but certainly pressure. A peak Wayne McCullough threw lots of punches when coming forward too.

[Thread Stealer]

I dont know. I only watched the fight a few weeks ago, great performance by Duran, but no dancing by Leonard! It wasn't like Duran's pressure was ridiculously intense for all 15 rounds. Even in the rounds that Leonard won there was nothing fleet footed. It was a close fight remember. Leonard was overconfident, couldn't believe a blown up lightweight could be stronger than him. Insults to Leonard's wife probably stoked the fire too. Hell, Duran played Leonard like Van Halen played guitar, clever chap!

I'm no nuthugger, Duran deserved that first fight. I was so impressed with him. But Leonard's comments afterwards that he wanted to fight Duran in a return 'his way' indicated that he knew that he fell into the trap of a brawl with one of the best brawlers of all time (ha ha 'the brawl in Montreal'!). Leonard danced second time round for the vast majority of the fight. He didn't attempt this in the first fight.

If as you say Duran didn't let him do his 'fleet footed' work then I'm suprised it featured so prominently in Leonard's return fight strategy. Or what would Leonard have done, fight the same fight as the first time? Theres a good chance he'd have lost again. Leonard was no fool.

I do agree that Duran's lack of preparation contributed to his performance and retirement in the second fight. But I dont think a well prepared Duran would have been happy boxing a fleet footed Leonard, although I still think it would be another close fight.

Leonard really didn't box fleet-footed very often. The Duran rematch and Hagler fight were exceptions, but usually he liked to fight flat-footed, maybe use some lateral movement, box in a very relax style behind his jab and then open up with combos and try to land his brilliant left hook.

There were quotes before the fight which surprised some reporters as Leonard said he planned to fight flat-footed, which shows that he did show an ability box on his toes, but still, in most of his fights in his career that I've seen (and I've seen a whole lot), he fought flat-footed most of the time.

He didn't change from his usual style for the first Duran fight, he changed it for the rematch (and Hagler).

On that note, Hagler switched it up (to perfection) to turn into a balls-to-the-wall swarmer against Hearns.

Those are some reasons why I think so highly of both Leonard and Hagler, the ability to switch it up in big fights against great opponents and do it so effectively.

[Sugarj]

Quote
'Leonard really didn't box fleet-footed very often. The Duran rematch and Hagler fight were exceptions, but usually he liked to fight flat-footed, maybe use some lateral movement, box in a very relax style behind his jab and then open up with combos and try to land his brilliant left hook.'


You've got to admit though Leonard was usually a lot more defensive and mobile than he was the first time for Duran. Even when he wasn't dancing about he had great footspeed. He was no stationary target. I remember watching the first Duran fight many years ago and thinking early on 'whats up with Sugar Ray, hes getting knocked all over the ring?' Duran was so good, special! As Poet rightly said he'd give any welter in history a good fight that night.

I suppose on reflection Leonard's dancing was used more post Duran 1, he danced alot of the early rounds with Hearns, obviously the Hagler fight, but also the LaLonde and second Hearns fights had Leonard dancing a fair bit. I suppose early on the competition wasn't terrifying before Benitez.....and dancing 15 rounds with a defensive genius like Wilfredo could have made for a truely boring fight.

[princemanspoper]

There was a long way to go in the fight when Duran quit and the referees scoring was 66-68,66-68 and 66-67 which as I recall doesn't seem to far out of whack. It was by no means impossible for Duran to have turned that fight round but he was not mentally or physically prepared.

The judges scoring was a complete joke to anybody who has actually seen that fight,Even with leonards supposed "running" he was still effectively outboxing duran and that was very clear to anybody who saw it.As for Duran turning around the fight,It was becoming less and less competitive towards the end,So I don't see how duran could have sparked such a comeback considering leonard showed no signs of slowing down

in the second fight however I think any half decent welter would have beaten him , he just wasn't "on" that night.

Not to take away from Leonard,

You just did,you prat