The Myth of bigger Heavyweights part 2

[billeau2]

Thats the thing about power though, you can punch as hard as you like on the heavybag, but in a fight, a big part of what makes a great power puncher is their ability to land with that power. To be able to coordinate their body in the right way in the face of a moving target. Thats where footwork, ring IQ, timing and ring generalship comes in. Thats why Joe Louis is, for me, the greatest puncher ever. Its not that he generated the most force, its that he was so brilliant at setting up and delivering his power.

Conor Mcgregor to me looked like he just wasnt sure where his target was going to be and so had to take all the steam off his shots to get them to land. You see the same with power punchers all the time as they move up in class. Its why GGG didnt look especially powerful against Canelo despite it being proven again and again that he can punch like a mule kicks.

A good demonstration my old coach used to do was using a tennis ball, he would throw it to one of us and ask us to hit as hard as we could. At first he would throw it the same pace, same angle and trajectory every time, then as it went on he would start to mix it up. At first you can turn your body into the shot and punch through the target because you know when and where it will be, when he starts mixing up the speed and stuff that becomes impossible. You basically tighten up and start using arm punches to make sure you hit the target. Was quite a good way to demostrate what good defence can achieve and how difficult it is to land with power and it always stayed with me.

Power in boxing is a fascinating subject to me. From the physiological (how ya body is put together), psychological (the confidence and attitude to punch with mean intentions in the face of danger) and technical (technique, ring craft etc) there are so many facets to it.

Yup. I love the small bag on the elastic bungee for a similar reason. It becomes very difficult to get your weight forward, the punch delivered when this bag starts moving. Sure one can tap it lol, but catching it with all those factors is the drill! This is how i teach my two sons to punch, it is in the living room, much to the chagrin of the mrs lol, and you can jab the thing and even catch it regularly with the weight not transferring...then the idea becomes after jabbing it, when it is back, sneaking in a big punch weight forwards... I love it!

Another thing your drill reminded me of, I use a piece of sting for a speed bag. same idea, catching the string at will with the weight in the right place...these two drills make the heavy bag pretty easy to use!!

[Zaroku]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p33bQCojtc

6 ft 10 275.

let's see some more, since it's obviously a new age Gimmick and a sign that the HW division is weak whenever it get's ruled by size kings.

I eats dem muthrfbcjinnn apps ez and azz clowns too

[Zaroku]

Yup. I love the small bag on the elastic bungee for a similar reason. It becomes very difficult to get your weight forward, the punch delivered when this bag starts moving. Sure one can tap it lol, but catching it with all those factors is the drill! This is how i teach my two sons to punch, it is in the living room, much to the chagrin of the mrs lol, and you can jab the thing and even catch it regularly with the weight not transferring...then the idea becomes after jabbing it, when it is back, sneaking in a big punch weight forwards... I love it!

Another thing your drill reminded me of, I use a piece of sting for a speed bag. same idea, catching the string at will with the weight in the right place...these two drills make the heavy bag pretty easy to use!!

Let me interject "catching it" is all that matters, & getting off of the canvas, taking a loss...

Because....if any part of your body except your feet touch that canvass, etc

[Humean]

You know an interesting thing I read was a sports science study said that actually heavier gloves generate more force.

There is a youtube video where they compare MMA Gloves and Boxing gloves. 4oz vs I think 10 oz.

I don't see how that's possible but just to put an interesting point in there.

Conn was a great fighter but too small for HW.

I'd be pretty confident in saying that the ligher gloves generate more force, do you have a link to this study?

I know the youtube video you are talking about, unfortunately the video doesn't really explain all their methods so I don't think it is too reliable.

However it might be that the difference in force between a 10 oz modern glove and a 6 oz modern glove is less significant than I (and the authorities) think.

Why is it that big KO artists in UFC come to boxing and seemingly have no power what so ever? Mike Perry and Conor McGregor, massive KO% in UFC yet looked like they started throwing punches for the first time a week prior to their boxing debuts.

Fascinating.

The gloves a factor? Or no?

I'd say that the gloves are the biggest factor.

When I use to fight we sparred with 16oz gloves and they hurt worse than the 10oz gloves we fought with. Have never looked into the science, but this is my own personal opinion and observation.

Might that not be because of your adrenaline, in a 'real' fight as opposed to sparring your fight or flight response is heightened?

[JAB5239]

I'd be pretty confident in saying that the ligher gloves generate more force, do you have a link to this study?

I know the youtube video you are talking about, unfortunately the video doesn't really explain all their methods so I don't think it is too reliable.

However it might be that the difference in force between a 10 oz modern glove and a 6 oz modern glove is less significant than I (and the authorities) think.



I'd say that the gloves are the biggest factor.



Might that not be because of your adrenaline, in a 'real' fight as opposed to sparring your fight or flight response is heightened?

Maybe, but I don't think so. We sparred like it was a regular fight. And truth be told, I almost always sparred with pros who were better than anyone I ever fought against with the exception of Brian Barbosa.

[Humean]

Maybe, but I don't think so. We sparred like it was a regular fight. And truth be told, I almost always sparred with pros who were better than anyone I ever fought against with the exception of Brian Barbosa.

So you felt more physical pain from say a punch to your arm from a 16 oz glove than a punch to your arm from a 10 oz glove?

Perhaps the better pros you sparred with punched harder even with 16 oz gloves than your opponents in your 'real' fights did with 10 oz gloves.

[IronDanHamza]

I'd be pretty confident in saying that the ligher gloves generate more force, do you have a link to this study?

I know the youtube video you are talking about, unfortunately the video doesn't really explain all their methods so I don't think it is too reliable.

However it might be that the difference in force between a 10 oz modern glove and a 6 oz modern glove is less significant than I (and the authorities) think.



I'd say that the gloves are the biggest factor.



Might that not be because of your adrenaline, in a 'real' fight as opposed to sparring your fight or flight response is heightened?

I think it was just that video to be honest, I am going off memory.

I agree with you totally. Lighter gloves more force, surely????

Was just throwing that out there as it was shown to me a few years ago.

[The Old LefHook]

I like to punch with hundred pound sacks of grain attached to my wrists. The extra weight in my hand adds power to my shots. I believe my punches are harder than when I use only the fifty pound sacks. But the fifty pound sacks make up for it with less padding and a harder surface.

[JAB5239]

So you felt more physical pain from say a punch to your arm from a 16 oz glove than a punch to your arm from a 10 oz glove?

Perhaps the better pros you sparred with punched harder even with 16 oz gloves than your opponents in your 'real' fights did with 10 oz gloves.

What I think it amounts to is the amount of mass a 16oz covers compared to 8oz or 10oz gloves. I'm not a sports scientist, just a guy with an opinion based on my own experiences.

[The Old LefHook]

The glove question is more interesting than the original heavyweight question.

Force has a linear relationship with Mass and Acceleration, the latter being mainly a fancy word for the Speed of the punch.

F=MA

If one were able to maintain the same Speed with the heavier glove, then of course the punch would be delivered with more Force. But we see the reduction in Speed must be compensated by the same factor in the numerator for the Force to remain unaffected. If we have

F=2MA/2, to remain unaffected. We expect the extra mass to be exactly compensated for by the extra force introduced by doublings and halvings.

How much does the extra mass of a heavier glove slow the punch down as the mass increases? We do not have an equation for this, but the result can only be a number, even if its final form is as a calculus derivative. We chose 2 for halvings and doublings just because it was an easy simple number, not at all because it was realistic. It would take an awfully heavy glove to slow a punch's rate of travel by half. But on paper we see how any number works. The mechanics of the operation will be the same, we just do not know the actual number which represents the slowing of the punch, so we have pretended for the sake of simplicity we have cut it in half.

The relationship is linear. If we cut the rate in half, we have to double the mass to compensate if we want no change to the punch's force. The boxer cannot suddenly punch with more strength. The increase in force, if any, has to be the direct result of the added mass and its increased impact. We want it to exactly match what was lost in speed, no matter what the real number is other than 2. Yes, we can write these numbers down in an equation, but can they represent reality?

I think our method is okay. When a boxer puts on a heavier glove, a reduction in speed accompanied by an increase in force can only be explained one way--by referring to the increased mass. Blame it on the mass.