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Old 09-01-2019, 07:15 AM #11
REDEEMER REDEEMER is offline
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Originally Posted by Marchegiano View Post
That's because contrary to popular belief the HW division protects giants from average sized men not the other way around.

I know y'all love to believe in the surface logic of weight divisions but it just does not hold up to history. The biggest guys have never dominated the division. The closest you get to that is the K2 era. What's more the text on motivations seems to deal much more with money then safety.

Okay, what's the average size for a bare knuckle champion? 175-200, 5'8"-6'2". Because men who stood at 6'6" and weight 240 had to fight smaller men. There was no HW min, only maxes for smaller weights. So a LW could, and did, become HW champion. Most of them were not LWs nor modern HWs, most were the larger side of average sized.

Then rules are made, those guys are told they are not HWs and they have to make weight. Then you have larger guys dominating the division then before BUT not the largest of the pool.

Rules change and again, the smallers have to make weight to fight, making it impossible for anyone at 200 to be HW champion....and ensuring the average size of the champs is larger.

I could get more in depth if y'a''re interested but I think I've made a pretty clear point and even with surface understanding it should be easy to see it isn't the small guys who got protected by weight division.

Lastly, average size is average size because it is strongest. You do not need anything for this but someunderstanding of evolution and history. For most of mankind's history the weak, ******ed, and physically deformed were doomed from birth to a short end. Giants and midgets includes. With dwarves it is easy to see, they exist in more numbers because the surviving human forms set up a system that can take care of them. With giants it is less obvious to people, but still true. There are not many giants from 686 BC because they died. They were dying like flies all the way up until the end of the 19th century. The size of your champs reflects this. Their bodies can not handle what the average body can....that's why it's average. Because for millenia after millenia survival of the fittest reigned unchecked. The k2 era itself is a reflection of man's check not giant abilities. Make an open weight and the same sizes will return. That, or you believe in under a few centuries only the largest of us have evolved, and, they evolved some 50xs faster then man ever had prior.
This isn't true at all. The CW division was made because the bigger guys were winning and they felt a category of below 200 was necessary. The average heavy weight is about 6'4. The only guy ranked in a top 10 spot under 6'3 is Ruiz and most guys are over that so no one is protecting any small guys that's bonkers .

There's no CW that can't be a HW who's a top one it's why Gassiev and Usyk are moving up and putting on size to compo there , because no one under 190 would want to anyway , your being ridiculous with the entire assumption the little guy is not allowed to fight in the biggest weight class .


Giants died out because of enlarged heart's it has nothing to do with modern heavyweights who are mostly about 6'5 in top spots today , I'll even add Povetkin but the rest are around d 6'5 and weigh over 230 , talking midgets and stuff , it's the most outlandish post I've read on here making a case that average is stronger but the average is 6'4/6'5 so what are you talking about ? Ha

Last edited by REDEEMER; 09-01-2019 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 09-01-2019, 07:24 AM #12
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Originally Posted by Dempsey19 View Post
I decided to do some math and find out what the average size of an undisputed, undefeated heavyweight champion was.

The average undisputed and undefeated heavyweight champion of the world stands 6í0.5Ē inches tall, has a 74.5 inch reach and weighed 204 pounds when he won his title.

Thatís the size of Jack Johnson, alternatively thatís also the size of Marvis Frazier. Make of that what you will.

If it werenít for the reach, it would be Earnie Shavers (hardest hitting heavyweight ever), if it werenít for the weight it would be Andy Ruiz Jr. (current heavyweight champion) and if it werenít for the height it would be either Joe Frazier or a slightly out of shape John L Sullivan.
Iíve said it before, we watch fighters on the scale but nobody ever sees anyone measured for height or reach. Sometimes the numbers arenít even consistent. Sum people still say Mike was 5í9Ē or 5í10Ē. Even at a lot of face offs the numbers donít seem to add up. Nobody actually knows the height of anyone past or present because they never saw them measured under scrutiny. I was laser measured at a c hair over 5í10Ē but everyone shorter than me will tell me I must be 6ft.
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Old 09-01-2019, 08:28 AM #13
Dempsey19 Dempsey19 is offline
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Iíve said it before, we watch fighters on the scale but nobody ever sees anyone measured for height or reach. Sometimes the numbers arenít even consistent. Sum people still say Mike was 5í9Ē or 5í10Ē. Even at a lot of face offs the numbers donít seem to add up. Nobody actually knows the height of anyone past or present because they never saw them measured under scrutiny. I was laser measured at a c hair over 5í10Ē but everyone shorter than me will tell me I must be 6ft.
But what about a guy over the 190 pound mark. Will he really be at a disadvantage ?
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Old 09-01-2019, 09:23 AM #14
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[QUOTE=Dempsey19;20029635]But what about a guy over the 190 pound mark. Will he really be at a disadvantage ?[/QUOTE

Iím 5í10Ē 215lbs lean. Iím not the strongest guy in the gym. But Iím fast and I can punch a bit. Iíd do everything I could to make 175lbs not to fight a Lennox Lewis. No amount of weight will increase ur reach. I know it sucks to fight a guy who is 6í5Ē and is skilled. They tag u before u can even get to them. Marciano never fought a Vitali. Weight isnít the same as size.
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Old 09-01-2019, 09:45 AM #15
Dempsey19 Dempsey19 is offline
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[QUOTE=Blond Beast;20029700]
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Originally Posted by Dempsey19 View Post
But what about a guy over the 190 pound mark. Will he really be at a disadvantage ?[/QUOTE

I’m 5’10” 215lbs lean. I’m not the strongest guy in the gym. But I’m fast and I can punch a bit. I’d do everything I could to make 175lbs not to fight a Lennox Lewis. No amount of weight will increase ur reach. I know it sucks to fight a guy who is 6’5” and is skilled. They tag u before u can even get to them. Marciano never fought a Vitali. Weight isn’t the same as size.
But what about a 5’10” man with a long reach like Bert Cooper or Earnie Shavers ? (Both have about the same reach as Vitali)

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Old 09-03-2019, 07:49 AM #16
Marchegiano Marchegiano is online now
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This isn't true at all. The CW division was made because the bigger guys were winning and they felt a category of below 200 was necessary. The average heavy weight is about 6'4. The only guy ranked in a top 10 spot under 6'3 is Ruiz and most guys are over that so no one is protecting any small guys that's bonkers .

There's no CW that can't be a HW who's a top one it's why Gassiev and Usyk are moving up and putting on size to compo there , because no one under 190 would want to anyway , your being ridiculous with the entire assumption the little guy is not allowed to fight in the biggest weight class .


Giants died out because of enlarged heart's it has nothing to do with modern heavyweights who are mostly about 6'5 in top spots today , I'll even add Povetkin but the rest are around d 6'5 and weigh over 230 , talking midgets and stuff , it's the most outlandish post I've read on here making a case that average is stronger but the average is 6'4/6'5 so what are you talking about ? Ha
Ignore three thousand years of history and focus on one division from the 80s. Sure bud.
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Old 09-03-2019, 11:29 AM #17
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Originally Posted by Marchegiano View Post
Ignore three thousand years of history and focus on one division from the 80s. Sure bud.
The evolution of humans isn't as linked to the sport of boxing as you seem to think. Survival was never about boxing ability.

I understand what you're saying. The average is the average because it's the most successful evolutionary trait.

That's not boxing though. A good big 'un beats a good little 'un.
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Old 09-03-2019, 11:58 AM #18
R-Hand Southpaw R-Hand Southpaw is offline
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[QUOTE=Dempsey19;20029731]
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Originally Posted by Blond Beast View Post

But what about a 5í10Ē man with a long reach like Bert Cooper or Earnie Shavers ? (Both have about the same reach as Vitali)
Taller fighter still has the advantage because if he were to pull from a punch he can travel more distance. Same can be true for throwing forward and covering distance

Look at wilder. It's tough to evade that right because when he hop steps and extends he can cover almost half the ring.
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Old 09-03-2019, 12:10 PM #19
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The evolution of humans isn't as linked to the sport of boxing as you seem to think. Survival was never about boxing ability.

I understand what you're saying. The average is the average because it's the most successful evolutionary trait.

That's not boxing though. A good big 'un beats a good little 'un.
Thank you for objecting respectfully, that's rare here. I appreciate you bud.

The evolution of humans is older than 3k.

I'm using evolutionary history to explain why for 3k year giants did not win. I'm very open to some other explanation.

600s BC to the 1890s AD is a loooooong time. There's plenty of room for explanation, but, what won't change is the recorded size and descriptions of champions.

You explain to me then, youse guys can tag team it, and I realize this sounds a bit pissy but really I am very interested in an alternative explanation and not at all upset by the challenge to the claim, but, why then, is it that boxing reflects the average size as greatest around until weight divisions became normalized and formalized?

You have 3k years of guys you'd call Middleweights absolutely owning the HW division. You have no period when these MW struggled against a new breed of larger men. You do have a period when weight divisions were formalized and the average size was no longer allowed to challenge for the greatest title.

p4p comes into being as weight divisions become more formal and set. Prior to it, for thousands of years, p4p was not a thing because the biggest could fight the smallest. There was no reason to suggest if weight wasn't a factor because it wasn't and in that entire era the big'uns got licked on average a whole lot more than the MW sized men.

Even after weight divisions are formalized the smaller men still get their hands on the HW title often. It isn't like no one was 6'6" and 240+ back in 1920, they just sucked....Primo...The smaller end of HW champions shrunk only as HW minimals were raised. Or to say that another way, HW champs got bigger as they raised weight division minimals to ensure HWs would be larger in the future.

Today you have to be 200+. Does not mean a 190er can't beat the **** out of Fury, Wilder, and Ruiz while weighing 190. It means he's not allowed. Find me an era when they were allowed but failed. Doesn't exist. What does exist is an era where they were allowed and dominated....that's pretty powerful and there's a loooot of history on it.

Again, would just love to hear someone's input on it that isn't from a book. As far as I know there's me and some history book authors talking about it and no one else. So, would just love fresh eyes.
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Old 09-04-2019, 04:40 AM #20
Dempsey19 Dempsey19 is offline
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[QUOTE=Socialtwinkie;20034513]
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Originally Posted by Dempsey19 View Post

Taller fighter still has the advantage because if he were to pull from a punch he can travel more distance. Same can be true for throwing forward and covering distance

Look at wilder. It's tough to evade that right because when he hop steps and extends he can cover almost half the ring.

That doesnít seem like that huge an advantage.
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