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Old 03-02-2012, 02:07 PM #1
them_apples them_apples is offline
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Default the most skilled boxers of all time?

And let me define skill: not someone who made other boxers look foolish with physical attributes, but rather, take their speed away would they still dominate?

Pernell Whitaker
Archie Moore
Joe Walcott
James Toney
Mike Mccallum
Juan Manuel Marquez
Julio Cesar Chavez
Nicolino Loche (sp)
Wilfredo Benitez


watch Jones Deteriorate once his speed and legs left him, Ali's defense game as well looked very mediocre as he slowed down, winning fights on heart. Even Mayweather depends a lot on his speed, These men are all skilled but aren't half of what they would be if they lost their physical prowess.

So basically, skills only thread

Anyways, I couldn't find a more skilled boxer than Pernell Whitaker, even fighting prime ATG ww's past his prime and way above his starting weight class, he was still damn near un - hittable and showed his counter punching abilities. James Toney is another, like a cleaner but smaller version of Joe Walcott. Being an overweight 5'10 middleweight beating up heavyweights. Pure skill.


Slick doesn't convert to skill always, although NSB would argue. Skill is the ability to:
- not telegraphing, throwing a punch cleanly without any loading, giving no indication (ever wonder why Margarito landed on Cotto yet he was so slow? and comeback Foremans Jab?)
- ring general ship, spinning your opponent and putting yourself in your punching range not his, as well as controlling the pace
- unpredictability, not telegraphing on a larger scale, your opponent doesn't know what you will do (see Duran vs SRL 1)
- accuracy and placement of punches (aiming for the chin, eyes, liver, sternum not just the head and sides of the body)
- as well as vision and keeping a certain poise at all times (Marquez is very good at this) some of this comes with experience others are naturally good at this.

- Counter punching: basically, when your opponent has his hands up he's harder to hit because he's ready to defend, when he tries to punch you, he's giving you an opening once his hand leaves his guard, a great counter puncher will be able to capitalize on this. Best counter right hand I've ever seen? Roberto Duran. runner up: James Toney, FMJ

- setting up your opponent:
The simple form is going to the body early, getting him to bring his hands down once the body start feeling the pain, then finishing up stairs late. More intricate things can be done, such as throwing a left hook to split his guard and throwing a cross in the opening. Or banging a right upper cut and catching his head with a left hook as it pops up. Tyson hitting behind the elbow to bring the guard back, shooting an upper cut up the pipe as the guard splits.

Feel free to add. These are all things you see professionals employing

Pernell Whitaker has all these + speed. Brutal combo.

Chavez had most of these as well and Mccallum, they weren't as quick though.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:25 PM #2
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What would Pernell Whitaker be without his natural ability though?

His defensive ability relied on reflexes just like Mayweather's does.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:44 PM #3
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I love how people say 'natural ability', or 'physical attributes', or whatever. People act like RJJ wasn't doing crazy training since he was a child, or James Toney wasn't studying mad Ezzard Charles tapes and other old timers. Natural ability, Athleticism? Yes. They also had a determination to be the best, to learn the game, and train with a chip on their shoulder.

RJJ wasn't just some freakishly physically gifted man.
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Old 03-02-2012, 04:11 PM #4
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Joe Louis!
Ezzard Charles!
Roberto Duran!
Jose Napoles!
Kid Gavilan!
Ray Robinson!
Marvin Hagler!
Thomas Hearns!
Ray Robinson!
Ray Leonard!
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Old 03-02-2012, 04:20 PM #5
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Originally Posted by raf727 View Post
I love how people say 'natural ability', or 'physical attributes', or whatever. People act like RJJ wasn't doing crazy training since he was a child, or James Toney wasn't studying mad Ezzard Charles tapes and other old timers. Natural ability, Athleticism? Yes. They also had a determination to be the best, to learn the game, and train with a chip on their shoulder.

RJJ wasn't just some freakishly physically gifted man.
I agree.

My post was in response to that and the ranking of Whitaker but not Roy Jones, Ali or Mayweather etc etc.

I think Whitaker's defenses relies on reflexes also.

Obviously not entirely or as much as say Roy Jones but without reflexes he wouldn't have been able to get out of the way like he did.
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Old 03-02-2012, 04:23 PM #6
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Originally Posted by raf727 View Post
I love how people say 'natural ability', or 'physical attributes', or whatever. People act like RJJ wasn't doing crazy training since he was a child, or James Toney wasn't studying mad Ezzard Charles tapes and other old timers. Natural ability, Athleticism? Yes. They also had a determination to be the best, to learn the game, and train with a chip on their shoulder.

RJJ wasn't just some freakishly physically gifted man.
Hard work can only get you so far though. These guys were blessed with a certain ability to box.
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Old 03-02-2012, 04:53 PM #7
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Originally Posted by IronDanHamza View Post
I agree.

My post was in response to that and the ranking of Whitaker but not Roy Jones, Ali or Mayweather etc etc.

I think Whitaker's defenses relies on reflexes also.

Obviously not entirely or as much as say Roy Jones but without reflexes he wouldn't have been able to get out of the way like he did.
well clearly. But you are missing my point, he still would have been an excellent defensive boxer without speed. Take away Jones speed and what was left? Mayweather is a bit of both. Not quite to the extreme of Jones, but his defense is purely based on the quickness he can anticipate his shoulder roll. He's been getting hit more than we have ever seen him hit as of late, even in his last fight that he won.

Whitaker was well past his prime taking on a prime DLH. He was still un touchable. I don't know if the triangle theory works with defense but DLH landed a hell of a lot more on Mayweather, who I consider in his prime.

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Old 03-02-2012, 04:54 PM #8
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Originally Posted by raf727 View Post
I love how people say 'natural ability', or 'physical attributes', or whatever. People act like RJJ wasn't doing crazy training since he was a child, or James Toney wasn't studying mad Ezzard Charles tapes and other old timers. Natural ability, Athleticism? Yes. They also had a determination to be the best, to learn the game, and train with a chip on their shoulder.

RJJ wasn't just some freakishly physically gifted man.
in the sport of boxing, if you are considered possibly the fastest boxer of all time, or to date, you are a freakish athlete.
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Old 03-02-2012, 06:08 PM #9
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Men, where is HOPKINS in that list?? he is not speedy, doesnt have powerful hands. He's game relies purely on tactical defense ( not laying on reflexes like Jones Jr) and his counter-punches are sharp! He beats people up on intelligence, pure master of boxing.
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Old 03-02-2012, 06:35 PM #10
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Ezzard Charles should be at or near the very top of this list.
Technically solid and exceptional in every area of the game.
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