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Old 09-12-2019, 10:00 AM #21
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Originally Posted by Eff Pandas View Post
I wanna see how good JBJ can be. And to me that involves going to HW. Hes getting older, time to put up or shut up. This is a champ champ era so if JBJ never attempts a 2nd belt thats a mark against him legacy-wise as I see it.

That one kid Walker(?) I think his name is seems like he could keep 205 interesting. If JBJ doesnt move up to 265 thats about the only thing of interest to me at 205. Im bored of seeing JBJ in 2nd gear max killing fools.
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I agree, hes could be the best fighter the sport has seen. I want to see the best taking on the biggest challenges.
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Old 09-12-2019, 02:58 PM #22
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I agree about till. His hype was even worse went in the bettong favorite against woodley somehow .
All because he beat a blown up LW when he himself is a drained MW. The said blown up LW is notorious for being both a slow starter and adverse to pressure fighters in his OWN weight class, let alone at a higher weight class versus a guy that is too big for it.

Boxing fans at times can be the biggest a-holes, k*nts, fanboys and we get our fair share of morons, but MMA has some of the most braindead fans ever. In boxing we've seen hype trains come and go for decades, whereas these new UFC fans (not MMA fans, but UFC fans) have been watching the sport/organisation for a few years at best
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Old 09-12-2019, 07:57 PM #23
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is offline
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Originally Posted by Eff Pandas View Post
I wanna see how good JBJ can be. And to me that involves going to HW. Hes getting older, time to put up or shut up. This is a champ champ era so if JBJ never attempts a 2nd belt thats a mark against him legacy-wise as I see it.

That one kid Walker(?) I think his name is seems like he could keep 205 interesting. If JBJ doesnt move up to 265 thats about the only thing of interest to me at 205. Im bored of seeing JBJ in 2nd gear max killing fools.

And Id argue 205 gets MORE interesting not less interesting with JBJ gone cuz it levels out the division. JBJ on some Wladimir sh^t at 205 & hes too good for these guys just like Wladimir was. When Wladimir left HW got interesting cuz it leveled off. And now next gen guys are coming up & making it more interesting. I think the same thing would go down at 205 immediately & then there are always guys on the way up so in 2-4 years those guys will be making splashs. Its all a cycle.
If he had McGregor hands (I get it, no one but McGregor does) he'd be Heavyweight champion already.

I guess it could be fun. But I really worry he's not gonna be able to handle the power. All the advantages he enjoys now (except maybe the Greco_roman wrestling) will be lost.

Cormier did better at Heavyweight becuase he could use his speed for greater advantage, and suddenly he had power to go with the speed of those hands. Jones won't have that.
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:40 PM #24
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If he had McGregor hands (I get it, no one but McGregor does) he'd be Heavyweight champion already.

Dem elbows fill in nicely for hands doe. And his jab like kick is gonna make him harder to close the gap on to put hands on him.

I guess it could be fun. But I really worry he's not gonna be able to handle the power. All the advantages he enjoys now (except maybe the Greco_roman wrestling) will be lost.

Cormier did better at Heavyweight becuase he could use his speed for greater advantage, and suddenly he had power to go with the speed of those hands. Jones won't have that.
Dem elbows fill in nicely for hands doe. And his jab like kick is gonna make him harder to close the gap on to put hands on him in the first place. JBJ is probably among the best of all time at strategy & cage IQ so hes gonna be tough to beat at any weight. I agree at HW there is a higher degree of difficulty & the margin of error is much smaller, but f#ck man when you are making it look so easy at the weight your at & there is no superfight or big rivalry lets get outta safety first mode & see what we can f#cking do.

I think Id favor & pick JBJ over any HW he would likely be setup to fight next time out if he were to move up.
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:54 PM #25
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I think jones could take him down after pressuring him against the cage. Jones has looked superhuman at times in the octagon i think it would be a mistake to thinn with extra size and strength he couldnt take stipe down. As far as cormier vs jones at heavy, i see what your saying about the weight cut but jones just seems to have his number

Im not all that big on Adesanya, i put money on kevin to beat him. I just think whitakers injurues will finally catch up with him and he will lose a kickboxing type of match to the fresher man
LOL, Miocic was muscling Cormier against the clinch in the opening minutes of their first fight. (Ironically, entering into that pissing match had much to do with his losing the fight - violently). Something Jones couldn't do until later.

Obviously a Heavyweight Jones will be bigger and stronger. Even the strikes he uses to control range should be more potent. But it's ridiculous he can move in and control Miocic like he's a shop-worn Middleweight. Do you really think Shogun of 2003 lets Jones put his hands on him? Forget that they don't even belong to the same division, do you think a prime Shogun lets Jones close in like that? Doubtful.

Miocic has better hands than Gus. He's far more confident and committed. Jones is gonna get smacked around.

Beating Stipe means beating him to the punch. We've seen that 3 (almost 4) times now. Sure, there are Wrestlers who'd beat, even dominate, Stipe, but they're not competing in MMA.

As far as Adesanya you might be right. I get that gut feeling that makes me money saying he'll pull a Ray Leonard. Whitaker a few fights back would smoke him. But w/o Wrestling to resort to, he might be chasing moonbeams, aka a faster, slicker, defensively-minded (albeit more limited and less lethal) opponent.
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Old 09-13-2019, 10:28 PM #26
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Originally Posted by Eff Pandas View Post
Dem elbows fill in nicely for hands doe. And his jab like kick is gonna make him harder to close the gap on to put hands on him in the first place. JBJ is probably among the best of all time at strategy & cage IQ so hes gonna be tough to beat at any weight. I agree at HW there is a higher degree of difficulty & the margin of error is much smaller, but f#ck man when you are making it look so easy at the weight your at & there is no superfight or big rivalry lets get outta safety first mode & see what we can f#cking do.

I think Id favor & pick JBJ over any HW he would likely be setup to fight next time out if he were to move up.
You could be right, but let me play devil's advocate for a moment.


Yeah, he's a versatile striker. He's like a poor man's McGregor.

But unlike McGregor, there's no threat of stepping into a fight-ending ambush. Jones has only once showcased fight ending power in a single shot: his head kick against Cormier. His elbows and kicks are damaging, but they won't discourage a big puncher from coming through.

Part of Gustafsson's problem in the rematch was that he lacked the fire and conviction of the first fight. Jones was dead-on when he said Gus lacked energy. You can be at that level and lack an inner rage. Guys like Miocic are chill, but there's no questioning that guy's determination! Gustafsson was surely feeling the effect of Jones' offense, but what really killed him was his own unwillingness to pull the trigger.

I don't doubt that anyone tied up against the cage could face the same fate as Chael Sonnen and so many other Middleweights. But Nganou, Miocic, and Lewis won't let him get there. And he's really not a good enough wrestler to make anything else happen.

I really wouldn't be shocked if he won every fight at Heavyweight. It's MMA. But I would be surprised. The advantages he's exploited through his career will disappear, even he's actually an improved product. Kinda like Tommy Hearns as he moved up in weight.
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Old 09-14-2019, 08:52 AM #27
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You could be right, but let me play devil's advocate for a moment.


Yeah, he's a versatile striker. He's like a poor man's McGregor.
I'd argue you are over hyping striking. Okay if McConor is a 10/10 in striking JBJ IS probably a 7/10 with his striking abilites. But this aint boxing. In overall MMA skills JBJ is a 10/10 & McConor is probably a 5/10.

And look at a guy like Werdum & all the damage he did at HW & he WISHES he had JBJ level striking ability.

The reason JBJ would merk or school most if not every HW & would 100% win the title at some point is cuz all most these HWs can do is strike.

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I don't doubt that anyone tied up against the cage could face the same fate as Chael Sonnen and so many other Middleweights. But Nganou, Miocic, and Lewis won't let him get there. And he's really not a good enough wrestler to make anything else happen.
Idk about all this. I think JBJ has great MMA wrestling skills while all these HWs have is strength. Now let JBJ put on 20-30lbs on & lets see what happens. I think JBJ would make Francis look dumber than Stipe made him look.

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I really wouldn't be shocked if he won every fight at Heavyweight. It's MMA. But I would be surprised. The advantages he's exploited through his career will disappear, even he's actually an improved product.
He WILL likely lose at HW sooner or later, but hes gonna lose at 205 sooner or later too. I mentioned he doesnt need to get outta 2nd gear very often. Well there was a time he didnt need to get outta 1st guy vs the best guys out there & legends. Now hes not fighting whos who in 1st gear hes fighting whos dat in 2nd gear. So hes trending down already. Might as well chase greatness instead of the status quo hes on.
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:44 AM #28
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I'd argue you are over hyping striking. Okay if McConor is a 10/10 in striking JBJ IS probably a 7/10 with his striking abilites. But this aint boxing. In overall MMA skills JBJ is a 10/10 & McConor is probably a 5/10.

And look at a guy like Werdum & all the damage he did at HW & he WISHES he had JBJ level striking ability.

The reason JBJ would merk or school most if not every HW & would 100% win the title at some point is cuz all most these HWs can do is strike.



Idk about all this. I think JBJ has great MMA wrestling skills while all these HWs have is strength. Now let JBJ put on 20-30lbs on & lets see what happens. I think JBJ would make Francis look dumber than Stipe made him look.



He WILL likely lose at HW sooner or later, but hes gonna lose at 205 sooner or later too. I mentioned he doesnt need to get outta 2nd gear very often. Well there was a time he didnt need to get outta 1st guy vs the best guys out there & legends. Now hes not fighting whos who in 1st gear hes fighting whos dat in 2nd gear. So hes trending down already. Might as well chase greatness instead of the status quo hes on.

Great post.


You've got one point surrounded. Let me move in on it for you: power provides tremendous parity. The bigger you get, the furter it takes you. Compare Hearns to Wilder. Conversely, compare Camacho to Ali.

Derrick Lewis is HORRIBLE. He's terrible to watch. It's really disgusting. But then he turns the fight on its head with one shot. To his credit, he's a tough dude. And I think he'd win a staring contest with the sun. The dude is focused. He DOES train hard. Mostly to survive, but that works. As gravity begins to take its toll on his opponents, the disparity in skill disappears.

With Jones, we don't know how he'll respond to the extra muscle. Yeah, it'll make him stronger. But how will his gas tank and mobility fare? Cormier IMPROVED with extra weight because he still had the speed, stamina and technical advantage. The disparity was enough that he didn't suffer the effects of additional weight. Until, of course, those advantages were insufficient for stopping Miocic.


I would love to know what Wrestling of Jones' you have seen that you think he'll bring to Heavyweight.

And his striking isn't anywhere near McGregor's. No one is, but the list of nearest competitors doesn't include Jones. McGregor murks dudes with his hands. Jones doesn't. And that means everything. The elbows he caught Machida and Gustafsson with were huge. And, like you said, he could probably apply the Thai clinch even more effectively than Werdum.

But we saw how competitive Gus, Cormier and Santos made things. You can say he doesn't take it out of second gear, but some dudes just fight like that. Jones isn't a super kinetic, frantic fighter. He's more measure and scientific. That's great for efficiency, and will prevent him from gassing out when he's packing on 30 extra pounds. Where it will hurt him is when he's in shoot-outs with opponents who are more comfortable and lethal with their hands.

You are convincing me that he's got great chances of winning even at the highest level. But I just see a gaping whole that I don't see being filled-in or blocked off by the addition of extra weight. So much of his successs is owed the strategy he applied: When even Middleweights were trying to compete at Heavyweight, he kept trim and competed at 205.

Why didn't he compete at Heavyweight to begin with, when smaller guys like Fedor, CroCop and Nogueira had such tremendous success there? Was he hiding something?
When he finally does move to Heavyweight I think we'll find out.
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