Being unbeaten, doesn't mean you are the best

[suntzu073]

My Dad grew up with Ezzard Charles, knew his family.Lived Cincinnati until 1952, when He and my mom moved to Washington heights NYC.Mr. Charles ran into my Dad at a nite club in Harlem in 1954 He met my Mom and Dad, got them tickets to his fight against Marciano at Yankee stadium.My mom didn't like boxing, so my Dad went with my Uncle Bill. After the fight Mr.Charles told my Dad after the 4th Rd he took a "break " My dad maintained that meant Mr.Charles was telling him he took a dive, I personally don't know what it meant for sure,he was one of my Dad's friends so that might not be a objective interpretation of Mr. Charles' statement.My Dad did say Mr.Charles was winning the fight up to the 5th rd, and he said "Ezzard wasn't looking right after the 5th" The second fight my dad wasn't in New york, my Great Grandmother died, and He went back to Cincinnati for her funeral. He did say he listened to it on the radio.He always said the mob made Mr.Charles tank both fights. I don't know if that's true or not, I don't think anyone alive today knows. But my Dad wasn't a liar He was a very quiet man who didn't say alot He learnt to box around the same time as Mr. Charles, they sparred together as kids He said "Ezzard was the best light heavy I ever saw, better than even Archie Moore " Marciano was a great champion. Beating Mr. Charles twice was his defining moments and his most noteworthy opponent who wasn't past his prime If those wins were legit, he was a true champion because he beat a true champion who was bigger than him and still in his prime. Marciano was really a blown up light heavy who fought and beat cats that outmatched him in size and skill that speaks volumes even if the quality of opponents weren't on the same level of let's say, Ali; he beat the ones put in front of him and beating Mr.Charles legitimately, is beating the ones that count. IMO

[Tony Trick-Pony]

That is all I was saying pal. I did not say that I know for a fact. I just surmised it would happen, based on America's desperate need for a white HW champ.

Eh. America embraced plenty of black champions over the years. The fighter who made the most money ever in boxing as a fighter, is black. I think this race talk just needs to die. When it comes down to it, this is a sport which thrives off money- not color. People sure embraced Mike Tyson. They embraced Holyfield. They embraced Sugar Ray Robinson. They embraced Michael Jordan. The facts show that America wants to be entertained and that comes in all colors and forms.

[chaconfan]

yeah. rocky knew his time was up and got out.

heres the 0 list (*= who i think will keep it). i dont watch the tiny fellas (sry if i missed any)~

aj
wilder
1x
sog*
bud
3g (if he beats canelo and stays at mw, he will keep his 0)
mikey g*
loma
rigo

Thanks again pal. Not sure who 1x sog or bud are though.

[Elroy The Great]

Thanks again pal. Not sure who 1x sog or bud are though.

1x = keef ''1 time'' thurman
sog = andre ''son of god'' ward
bud = terence ''bud'' crawford

[chaconfan]

Eh. America embraced plenty of black champions over the years. The fighter who made the most money ever in boxing as a fighter, is black. I think this race talk just needs to die. When it comes down to it, this is a sport which thrives off money- not color. People sure embraced Mike Tyson. They embraced Holyfield. They embraced Sugar Ray Robinson. They embraced Michael Jordan. The facts show that America wants to be entertained and that comes in all colors and forms.

They embraced Sugar Ray Leonard and many others too. but I thought I had made it very clear that I was talking about a time long before Tyson et al.
Don't forget, most of white America wanted Frazier to beat Ali. Look at the circumstances surrounding Holmes v Cooney. Cooney was actually allowed to come into the ring last and actually got paid the same as the champ because he was the great white hope.
This is what Holmes said... ''Cooney has fought only setups,'' he said. ''If he weren't white, do you think he'd be here, getting the same money as me?"
White America hated Jack Johnson and tried all sorts of trickery and biased rules, to try to get rid of him. When Dempsey was champ, they virtually banned blacks from fighting for the title. Yes they are accepted and even idolized these days and have been for a while, but people like Marciano and Dempsey were like Gods to white America and anything to help them keep the title going to a black man would have been considered.

[chaconfan]

Oh thanks pal.
I would say that Ward already lost a fight tbh though.

[chaconfan]

My Dad grew up with Ezzard Charles, knew his family.Lived Cincinnati until 1952, when He and my mom moved to Washington heights NYC.Mr. Charles ran into my Dad at a nite club in Harlem in 1954 He met my Mom and Dad, got them tickets to his fight against Marciano at Yankee stadium.My mom didn't like boxing, so my Dad went with my Uncle Bill. After the fight Mr.Charles told my Dad after the 4th Rd he took a "break " My dad maintained that meant Mr.Charles was telling him he took a dive, I personally don't know what it meant for sure,he was one of my Dad's friends so that might not be a objective interpretation of Mr. Charles' statement.My Dad did say Mr.Charles was winning the fight up to the 5th rd, and he said "Ezzard wasn't looking right after the 5th" The second fight my dad wasn't in New york, my Great Grandmother died, and He went back to Cincinnati for her funeral. He did say he listened to it on the radio.He always said the mob made Mr.Charles tank both fights. I don't know if that's true or not, I don't think anyone alive today knows. But my Dad wasn't a liar He was a very quiet man who didn't say alot He learnt to box around the same time as Mr. Charles, they sparred together as kids He said "Ezzard was the best light heavy I ever saw, better than even Archie Moore " Marciano was a great champion. Beating Mr. Charles twice was his defining moments and his most noteworthy opponent who wasn't past his prime If those wins were legit, he was a true champion because he beat a true champion who was bigger than him and still in his prime. Marciano was really a blown up light heavy who fought and beat cats that outmatched him in size and skill that speaks volumes even if the quality of opponents weren't on the same level of let's say, Ali; he beat the ones put in front of him and beating Mr.Charles legitimately, is beating the ones that count. IMO

Very interesting pal.
Marciano fought as a heavy in all his bouts. Charles fought at middle and light heavy. Historians are in total agreement that his peak was as a light heavy, so in that respect he most certainly WAS past his peak. He moved to heavy to earn more money. Another very significant thing is that in those days a man was older, sooner than they are today. Marciano retired at 31, so think about it, Klitschko has just fought for the title at 41 and still looked great. That means Marciano should have been able to box for at least another 15 years...and Klitschko has had more fights than Marciano too!
Yes he did beat who was in front of him, but I keep trying to emphasize that this is my point. What WAS in front of him was not that great of an achievement, being that they were all old or from lighter weights, and his opponents before he was champ were mostly unknowns with poor records. People are moaning about Deontay Wilders opponents, why not be fair and ask why one guy can be worshiped as a legend and another can be criticized and ridiculed?

[GhostofDempsey]

My Dad grew up with Ezzard Charles, knew his family.Lived Cincinnati until 1952, when He and my mom moved to Washington heights NYC.Mr. Charles ran into my Dad at a nite club in Harlem in 1954 He met my Mom and Dad, got them tickets to his fight against Marciano at Yankee stadium.My mom didn't like boxing, so my Dad went with my Uncle Bill. After the fight Mr.Charles told my Dad after the 4th Rd he took a "break " My dad maintained that meant Mr.Charles was telling him he took a dive, I personally don't know what it meant for sure,he was one of my Dad's friends so that might not be a objective interpretation of Mr. Charles' statement.My Dad did say Mr.Charles was winning the fight up to the 5th rd, and he said "Ezzard wasn't looking right after the 5th" The second fight my dad wasn't in New york, my Great Grandmother died, and He went back to Cincinnati for her funeral. He did say he listened to it on the radio.He always said the mob made Mr.Charles tank both fights. I don't know if that's true or not, I don't think anyone alive today knows. But my Dad wasn't a liar He was a very quiet man who didn't say alot He learnt to box around the same time as Mr. Charles, they sparred together as kids He said "Ezzard was the best light heavy I ever saw, better than even Archie Moore " Marciano was a great champion. Beating Mr. Charles twice was his defining moments and his most noteworthy opponent who wasn't past his prime If those wins were legit, he was a true champion because he beat a true champion who was bigger than him and still in his prime. Marciano was really a blown up light heavy who fought and beat cats that outmatched him in size and skill that speaks volumes even if the quality of opponents weren't on the same level of let's say, Ali; he beat the ones put in front of him and beating Mr.Charles legitimately, is beating the ones that count. IMO

One thing to note about Ezzard Charles, many writers and fans speculated that he may have eased up on Marciano because Charles had previously killed a man in the ring. He wasn't the same "finisher" after that fight and with Marciano's nose practically hanging off his face and taking brutal punishment, many believed Charles didn't have the heart to finish him. No one but Charles knows for certain.

On that note, even though Marciano holds two wins over him, I still regard Ezzard Charles as the superior talent and better fighter by a rather wide margin. In fact, anyone can make a claim for him being in the top ten P4P of all time without much argument.

[Tony Trick-Pony]

They embraced Sugar Ray Leonard and many others too. but I thought I had made it very clear that I was talking about a time long before Tyson et al.
Don't forget, most of white America wanted Frazier to beat Ali. Look at the circumstances surrounding Holmes v Cooney. Cooney was actually allowed to come into the ring last and actually got paid the same as the champ because he was the great white hope.
This is what Holmes said... ''Cooney has fought only setups,'' he said. ''If he weren't white, do you think he'd be here, getting the same money as me?"
White America hated Jack Johnson and tried all sorts of trickery and biased rules, to try to get rid of him. When Dempsey was champ, they virtually banned blacks from fighting for the title. Yes they are accepted and even idolized these days and have been for a while, but people like Marciano and Dempsey were like Gods to white America and anything to help them keep the title going to a black man would have been considered.

You do realize that by wanting Frazier to win, they were cheering on a black man? Ha.

Beyond this, with the Cooney fight, you should also note that Cooney had been out of the ring for 18 months before the fight. If they wanted him to win so badly as you say, wouldn't they have better prepared him for the fight? As far as Dempsey, he would have fought anybody but Doc Kearn didn't want him to. I don't know that the majority of white Americans wanted this. There's really no proof that they did. This is a broad assumption that has been passed down and keeps getting repeated but what real evidence is there that America HAD to HAVE a WHITE champion? Joe Louis was revered when he was champion. No one cared that he was black. Jack Johnson kind of dug his own grave with that one. He was very outlandish and didn't give a damn. I'm not saying he was rightly persecuted but the guy liked to piss people off and didn't care. Besides, he remained champion for many years. If the country had been so downright hate-filled, wouldn't they have just stripped him? I'm saying that all this racial talk usually is not that verifiable. Human nature really doesn't change. Racists have always been in the minority.

[phallus]

To show you that we can pick apart any fighter's record from any era, here are several fighter's records for you to consider:

Rudolph Bent 44-42-4
Peter Schmidt 22-25-7
Harvey McCullough 7-25-2
Rocky Randall 79-54-14
Jimmy Beecham 41-30-3
Fabio Bettini 20-10-5
Clarence Riley 21-31-5
George Estatoff 3-11-2
Wilf Greaves 34-20-1
Ted Olla 35-18-2
Jean Wanes 24-33-11
Kid Marcel 81-38-25
Billy Brown 59-30-8
Cliiff Beckett 17-14-3
Vern Lester 25-26-15
Charley Dodson 37-29-4
Al Mobley 50-26-5
George LaRover 65-26-6
Don Lee 46-18-9
Cecil Hudson 59-30-4
Freddie Flores 21-38-10
Ossie Harris 41-45-5
Flashy Sebastian 42-18-6
Sammie Secreet 30-20-2
Eddie Finazzo 39-31-5
Freddie Wilson 15-29-0
Sidney Miller 11-24-5
Izzy Jannazzo 63-42-15
Tony Riccio 30-16-6
Vic Dellicurti 39-28-9
Carl Guggino 109-42-25
Victor Troise 20-29-10
Joe Ghnouly 65-28-8
Charley Burns 41-38-8

I'm sure you don't recognize any of these names. By today's standards most casuals would call them bums, a term I detest towards any fighter. However, these were some of Sugar Ray Robinson's opponents, most of whom he fought during his prime, and several of them he fought in multiple bouts. I even left a few out for the sake of brevity.

So while you're aching about Marciano's opponent who had 57 losses, it wasn't uncommon for fighter's of that era to stay busy by fighting club fighters and journeymen in between title fights just to keep earning a paycheck and stay sharp and in fighting condition.

Ray Robinson is arguably one of the greatest prize fighters of all time, and even he had several opponents on his record who carried losing records.

Yes, that's true, but still I and a lot of others still feel it's significant because he fought everyone in his era, which is all you could ask of a champion. He left after 49 fights because he felt he was getting too old for the sport and didn't enjoy it anymore.

But, of course, simply being unbeaten doesn't make someone the best. Otherwise, instead of names like Robinson, Armstrong, Greb, Louis and Ali, people's all time best boxers list would be littered with names like Joe Calzaghe, Sven Ottke, Ike Ibeabuchi, Joe Mesi and Michael Loewe. Mayweather and Marciano will at least be somewhere in there in the top 50-100, I doubt any of those other guys are. You'd have to ask our educated historians here.

]0's are very difficult to maintain. especially if a guy moves in between divs. im not a fan of rocky the fighter but, in his case, being lucky is better than being good[/B].

these guys said what i was trying to say, and better than me