Jack Dempsey against Rocky Marciano

[Bundana]

Can't believe anyone would read too much into what oldtimers have to say about Dempsey!

Isn't it obvious, that someone like Arcel would think very highly of Dempsey? He was a young man, when Dempsey became boxing's first superstar - so naturally he would have fond memories of the man he idolized in his youth.

As for Tunney trying to build up Dempsey as this unstoppable force, who would slay every heavyweight that came after him... c'mon, how can anyone take that seriously?

[ShoulderRoll]

Can't believe anyone would read too much into what oldtimers have to say about Dempsey!

Isn't it obvious, that someone like Arcel would think very highly of Dempsey? He was a young man, when Dempsey became boxing's first superstar - so naturally he would have fond memories of the man he idolized in his youth.

As for Tunney trying to build up Dempsey as this unstoppable force, who would slay every heavyweight that came after him... c'mon, how can anyone take that seriously?

You would have us ignore what Ray Arcel and Gene Tunney had to say about Dempsey.

Presumably you would also have us ignore the 40 boxing experts interviewed by Ring magazine in 1962, the same ones who ranked Dempsey the #1 heavyweight and Marciano merely #7.

Who would you have us listen to instead, that you think would give a more accurate opinion on Dempsey?

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Humean,

You are incorrect when you say that Dempsey's opposition was the best that his period could offer, since you conveniently forget that Dempsey wanted no part of any of the colored HW fighters at that time. He would rather fight MWs like Georges Carpentier than tangle with the likes of Joe Jeanette.

Carpentier was a light heavyweight and Jeanette was geriatric by the time Dempsey won the title.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Saying that about Ali is far more palatable for several reasons.
1) He was clearly far better than Dempsey
2) He fought in an era in sport that was a lot closer to today in terms of professionalism, standards and rules than the 1960s and 70s was compared to the 1910s and 20s.
3) Ali was a bigger man, taller and heavier.

Those old time boxing insiders often idolized Dempsey, he was a great of his day, not only one of the greatest sportsman of his time but something of a national icon of the age. What possible value can old men comparing their memories of a fighter they saw in their younger days to other fighters? It is worthless.

Depends on what your measuring. Dempsey was the far better puncher, pressure fighter, and put defense and offense together in a way that Ali never was able to.

Dempsey wouldn't have been put out by Cooper, he would have stopped Frazier, would have stopped Norton in the first round and would have beaten everyone on Ali's resume from Liston to just before Foreman. Foreman would have been a hard match for Dempsey and I'm not so sure he beats that monster.

Ali was also better in many respects but to act as if Ali and Dempsey can't be mentioned in the breath is preposterous. Your entire argument is preposterous. I mean you seriously think that modern fighters are automatically better than older fighters. That's been essentially disproven. Just look at how one dimensional Joshua looked against Parker and the struggle he had with retiree Wlad Klitschko.

[Bundana]

You would have us ignore what Ray Arcel and Gene Tunney had to say about Dempsey.

Presumably you would also have us ignore the 40 boxing experts interviewed by Ring magazine in 1962, the same ones who ranked Dempsey the #1 heavyweight and Marciano merely #7.

Who would you have us listen to instead, that you think would give a more accurate opinion on Dempsey?

How can you read what Tunney and Arcel had to say about Dempsey, and not realize they were his 2 biggest fanboys? Can you not see, that what they had to say is completely absurd?

Why did the experts in 1962 rate Dempsey as the best heavyweight ever? Because back then most of the seasoned boxing people had probably been around when Dempsey ruled the heavyweights. So of course they adored him.

If you had asked boxing experts 30 years earlier, say in 1932, what do you think the result would have been? They would all have Dempsey's career fresh in mind - but would they vote him the best ever? No, because they would have grown up during Jeffries time, and would likely have picked him as the best ever.

And if you ask experts today, most would probably rate Ali the greatest ever.

That's simply how the human mind works. We're more easily impressed in our youth, and tend to go with what we experienced back then. Just look at Nat Fleischer - whose all-time rankings at his death in 1972 were filled with pre-WW1 boxers. No love for great post-WW2 fighters like Saddler, Williams, Moore, Charles, Ortiz, Liston, etc.

I'm sure Fleischer's rankings reflected his true, honest opinion... but it just goes to show, how nostalgia can play a big part in how we see things.

Who do I think we should rather listen to, instead of Arcel, Tunney and the old 1962 group of experts? Well, since every member of this forum probably has seen more Dempsey footage, than almost all experts/historians from more than half a century ago... how about if we examine the evidence that is available to us, and form our own opinions? You know, rather than clinging to the words of some oldtimers, who haven't seen half the stuff that we have.

[mikeg1224]

Mr. MojoRisin',

You are right on both points!

With Carpentiers I was trying to illustrate that Dempsey fought some who were less than full-fledged HWs and with Jeanette I was attempting to cite an example of a prominent colored fighter whom Dempsey avoided.

Nevertheless, you reminded me to be more careful.

Thank you.

[travestyny]

Carpentier was a light heavyweight and Jeanette was geriatric by the time Dempsey won the title.

Didn't stop Dempsey from running away from Jeanette in New York City before he had the title. I'm just saying.

Mr. MojoRisin',

You are right on both points!

With Carpentiers I was trying to illustrate that Dempsey fought some who were less than full-fledged HWs and with Jeanette I was attempting to cite an example of a prominent colored fighter whom Dempsey avoided.

Nevertheless, you reminded me to be more careful.

Thank you.

You were right about what you said. Dempsey admits to avoiding Jeanette in New York City, to which the crowd booed him and called him a coward. He was quoted as saying, "I'll fight any white man, but I didn't agree to fight a colored boy."

This was all put into an article that Dempsey himself is given credit for writing.

[mikeg1224]

Just in case you never saw Fireman Jim Flynn, the man who KOed Jack Dempsey, here are his pathetic efforts against Sam Langford and Jack Johnson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e46ChIlWyc8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFWA5xjJ0-4

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Didn't stop Dempsey from running away from Jeanette in New York City before he had the title. I'm just saying.

Actually Jeanette ducked Dempsey. Dempsey showed up and Jeanette didn't throw a single punch. Why didn't Jeanette just walk up to him and punch him in the face? Jeanette is clearly the one who ducked Dempsey if he wanted to fight he would have fought Dempsey right there on the sidewalk but he didn't so that means he ducked. Dempsey was the boogeyman and scared Jeanette half to death.

See I can play this game too.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Mr. MojoRisin',

You are right on both points!

With Carpentiers I was trying to illustrate that Dempsey fought some who were less than full-fledged HWs and with Jeanette I was attempting to cite an example of a prominent colored fighter whom Dempsey avoided.

Nevertheless, you reminded me to be more careful.

Thank you.

Jeanette wasn't a prominent fighter when Dempsey arrived on the scene.