Was this a title fight?

[Willie Pep 229]

Question #1: Was this a title fight? (see fight poster below)

Question #2: Would this have been recognized as a title defense if Ali had defeated Frazier a year later?

For:

1. It is scheduled for 15 rounds at a time when only world title fights were scheduled for 15.
   
2. It states that this is the return of the champion. (Definitive article used.)
   
3. Ali's next fight, Bonavena was also scheduled for 15 rounds.

Against:

1. Ali had announced his retirement earlier. *
   
2. Ali's next fight, Bonavena is listed by BoxRec as being for the NABF title.
   
3. Both sanctioning bodies at the time (WBC and NYSAC) recognized Frazier as world champion.

* Corbett announced his retirement and Fitzsimmons claimed the title after defeating Maher, but that didn't carry any weight after Corbett un-retired himself. (For)

* Louis announced retirement and when un-retired accepted the role of challenger to Charles's title claim. (Against)

* A more complicated scenario presents itself with Jeffries announcing retirement, leaving us to decide whether Johnson was champion after defeating Burns or Jeffries. (Clouded by contemporaneous racial politics).



P.S. Anyone know who was calling Quarry the #1 Challenger?

[Bundana]

No one at the time thought of this as a world title bout. Not even the "lineal champion" aspect was brought into play, if I remember correctly.

The scheduled 15 rounds was probably just to underline how important the fight was - and to give Ali an opportunity to show he could still go the full championship distance, if he had to (as was the case vs Bonavena).

[Marchegiano]

I dunno, been asking for years now. It became more popular after Tyson reclaimed lineal but not anymore well explained.

I think it should be pointed out post Jeffries retirement he too elected the challengers for his vacant title, just like Corbett. I'm not sure if he is the last man to do it, but given the rise of bodies by the 10s and NBA by 21 I think he may have been. Jack Root and Marvin Hart fought for the title because Jim Jeffries said they should. We all recognize Hart, almost no one recognizes Maher.


What Bundana said has major play in how authorities list lineal. A place like CBZ isn't going to list Maher because Corbett was the accepted champion and even Maher was a bit standoffish about being given the title without fighting Corbett. Corbett did it, and it was kind of accepted because no one really had a choice, but, no one liked it and as soon as they were given an out they took it.

When Jeffries elected Root and Hart no one really batted an eye. Hart just became champion, and then Burnsie whooped him. Burns and Hart are kind underrated today but outside of that fans think of them as real deal champions.

So if you're a historical society do you want to reflect how people in that time felt about a subject or do you want to reflect who in that time qualifies for a consistent criteria?

If we're being consistent, Corbett's not the first to elect his successors. That goes right to the very beginning of English bare knuckle actually. There are elected champions before there are even man who beat the man champions. Figg's lifetime hardly saw direct exchange and favored Figg's choice. Win or loss, the champion of England was who Figg said it was. Champions after him did the same and it really never went away until sanctioning bodies. That was just what happened pre-sanctioning body.

So I can see it both ways. If we're going to define lineal then the definition of lineal should fit all those called lineal champions. If we're going to reflect who historically was seen by the majority of people alive at that time as champion, that's a different case.

[QueensburyRules]

- -Corbett had publicly relinquished his title as did Ali so Ellis could fight his title.

Ali had 3 yrs out. In Corbetts day title fights were hard to make, ie a Corbett title match killed by the 1895 Texas legislature that put him in a retirement tiff. He was minting his own $ in plays around the country where he was less likely to get shot or arrested.

Ali was lucky Georgia was the first state to allow him to fight and sure weren't gonna rock the boat with nonsensical title claims.

[Willie Pep 229]

- -Corbett had publicly relinquished his title as did Ali so Ellis could fight his title.

Ali had 3 yrs out. In Corbetts day title fights were hard to make, ie a Corbett title match killed by the 1895 Texas legislature that put him in a retirement tiff. He was minting his own $ in plays around the country where he was less likely to get shot or arrested.

Ali was lucky Georgia was the first state to allow him to fight and sure weren't gonna rock the boat with nonsensical title claims.

I agree, I doubt Ali was concerned about whether it was a title fight. Far more likely it was the promoters who were trying to make some kind of a claim by making it 15 rounds, and using the phrase #1 Contender.

But to repeat, I doubt Ali cared one way or another. I suspect his number one concern was to get a payday, and then held and eye towards Frazier.

Regardless of what anyone said (sanctioning bodies, press, the populace) both men, in different ways, knew they needed to defeat the other guy if they were going to be recognized as champion.

There was only one championship fight out there for either man, Frazier-Ali. -- Any other fight, either man tried to claim as a championship bout, wasn't going to hold water with the public.

[SaturdaysRadio]

Regarding the "number 1 challenger" part, the WBA had Quarry #3, the WBC had him #2, Boxing Illustrated had him #3, and Ring had him #1. Ali wasn't ranked by any of these until after the fight happened.

[QueensburyRules]

- -And perhaps more noteworthy was the who's who Ali victory party crashed by a NY gang lifting a fortune in valuables from the heavily encrusted crowd...only in boxing!

[Rusty Tromboni]

Question #1: Was this a title fight? (see fight poster below)

Question #2: Would this have been recognized as a title defense if Ali had defeated Frazier a year later?

For:

1. It is scheduled for 15 rounds at a time when only world title fights were scheduled for 15.
   
2. It states that this is the return of the champion. (Definitive article used.)
   
3. Ali's next fight, Bonavena was also scheduled for 15 rounds.

Against:

1. Ali had announced his retirement earlier. *
   
2. Ali's next fight, Bonavena is listed by BoxRec as being for the NABF title.
   
3. Both sanctioning bodies at the time (WBC and NYSAC) recognized Frazier as world champion.

* Corbett announced his retirement and Fitzsimmons claimed the title after defeating Maher, but that didn't carry any weight after Corbett un-retired himself. (For)

* Louis announced retirement and when un-retired accepted the role of challenger to Charles's title claim. (Against)

* A more complicated scenario presents itself with Jeffries announcing retirement, leaving us to decide whether Johnson was champion after defeating Burns or Jeffries. (Clouded by contemporaneous racial politics).



P.S. Anyone know who was calling Quarry the #1 Challenger?

Regarding the "number 1 challenger" part, the WBA had Quarry #3, the WBC had him #2, Boxing Illustrated had him #3, and Ring had him #1. Ali wasn't ranked by any of these until after the fight happened.

Supposedly only Quarry wanted the fight. There were preferred challengers, but they declined the offer. Quarry wanted the fight, so he inflated a bit here.

You can say he never had a chance, but to Ali's credit that is a stiff enough challenge for your first fight back after such a long lay-off.