Replace Ali with Charles 64-67

[The Old LefHook]

Ali would beat the daylight out of the large hwts of today. They would appear in slow motion in comparison. In Ali we are talking the greatest of all hwt champions. Many notches above anyone we have seen since Lewis.

Charles at his best was a great fighter and KO puncher. He lacked the great mobility of an Ali which was his downfall. Charles loses to Liston and Terrell. Pickum vs Patterson. He beats the rest.

All perfectly true. No one in Galootv'lle could touch Ali. Today's galoots are certainly not as good as many he fought. They would ruin his ledger with too much easy meat. The Klits were both easy fights for him.

I already said Charles was a great combination and counter puncher. But I also said that for force he did not leave them quivering on canvas with one punch, piss dribbling from the corners of their trunks, and I have to stand by that. He knocked a lot of people out, but they were not KO's on the Julian Jackson level of destruction. He decisioned the smaller Charley Burley several times, not wins by KO. Furthermore, once in a while merely good punchers score devastating one punch KOs over a highly rated fighter. That still does not make them great, great punchers. All they did was perform above themselves once, or maybe a few times.

Someone who often KO'd opponents with a single shot was Ray Robinson. Fullmer is the most famous one, but Ray's film ledger is littered with a variety of one punch KOs to both the head and body and with either hand. As far as I know, Charles was not known for that. He apparently was a tiger, but that does not make him a one punch KO artist. Were Juan Manual Marquez and Wifredo Benitez great one punch KO artists? Look what one did to Pacquiao and the other to Maurice Hope.

Have you got something?

* * * * *

P.S. Did I get the name wrong? Was it Maurice Harris instead? I cannot remember.

[HOUDINI563]

Did not say he was a one punch KO artist. He was a KO puncher. He had KO power in either fist. Allot of this had to do with speed and technique.

[uncle ben]

Id pick Charles to beat that version of Liston. I'd also pick him to beat Patterson because Patterson had an injured back on that night. Otherwise it could go either way. Charles beats the rest.

[OctoberRed]

All perfectly true. No one in Galootv'lle could touch Ali. Today's galoots are certainly not as good as many he fought. They would ruin his ledger with too much easy meat. The Klits were both easy fights for him.

I already said Charles was a great combination and counter puncher. But I also said that for force he did not leave them quivering on canvas with one punch, piss dribbling from the corners of their trunks, and I have to stand by that. He knocked a lot of people out, but they were not KO's on the Julian Jackson level of destruction. He decisioned the smaller Charley Burley several times, not wins by KO. Furthermore, once in a while merely good punchers score devastating one punch KOs over a highly rated fighter. That still does not make them great, great punchers. All they did was perform above themselves once, or maybe a few times.

Someone who often KO'd opponents with a single shot was Ray Robinson. Fullmer is the most famous one, but Ray's film ledger is littered with a variety of one punch KOs to both the head and body and with either hand. As far as I know, Charles was not known for that. He apparently was a tiger, but that does not make him a one punch KO artist. Were Juan Manual Marquez and Wifredo Benitez great one punch KO artists? Look what one did to Pacquiao and the other to Maurice Hope.

Have you got something?

* * * * *

P.S. Did I get the name wrong? Was it Maurice Harris instead? I cannot remember.

Which fight with Harris? With Jefferson?

[uncle ben]

Charles was a light heavy. He could pull it off in the heavier era. He would not win all those fights, however, just give a good account of himself. He would probably beat four of them and lose to four of them, or at least have life & death struggles. There is no way, for instance, that he is beating Liston on a decent day for Sonny. I think Chuvalo is likely to whip Ez.

I don't think the 60s was the "heavier" era. Up to that point, the size of heavies had been the same they'd always been. Liston, at 6'1 212 pounds was considered a huge heavy. I'd say this era is more of the "heavier" era where the top fighters for the most part tend to be closer to 6'6 250 pounds.

[The Old LefHook]

I don't think the 60s was the "heavier" era. Up to that point, the size of heavies had been the same they'd always been. Liston, at 6'1 212 pounds was considered a huge heavy. I'd say this era is more of the "heavier" era where the top fighters for the most part tend to be closer to 6'6 250 pounds.

There is some truth in what you say. However, Liston was a freak of nature and actually was as large as galoots in many significant ways. His arms were as long and thick as theirs, and his fists were larger than many opponents' biceps! He was built like a man who just stepped out of a cotton field in his prime.

How odd that a man's size advantage over his opponents could remain hidden or at least somewhat obscured by aspects of his physique which were normal.

[OctoberRed]

I don't think the 60s was the "heavier" era. Up to that point, the size of heavies had been the same they'd always been. Liston, at 6'1 212 pounds was considered a huge heavy. I'd say this era is more of the "heavier" era where the top fighters for the most part tend to be closer to 6'6 250 pounds.

Very true. Wilder, when he comes in under 220, is viewed as small despite his height.

[uncle ben]

Very true. Wilder, when he comes in under 220, is viewed as small despite his height.

Correct. Even a prime Foreman would be considered only an average size heavy today at 6'3 220 pounds.

[uncle ben]

There is some truth in what you say. However, Liston was a freak of nature and actually was as large as galoots in many significant ways. His arms were as long and thick as theirs, and his fists were larger than many opponents' biceps! He was built like a man who just stepped out of a cotton field in his prime.

How odd that a man's size advantage over his opponents could remain hidden or at least somewhat obscured by aspects of his physique which were normal.

I've always looked at Liston as a super heavy trapped in a heavyweight body. That said, I think Liston is a fighter that could fit in with the old time era of heavies or the modern day era of heavies. He's one of those fighters who I think could lose to a smaller, old time heavy but then stop a modern day heavy. For example, I could see say Ezzard Charles beating Liston but then Liston poleaxing Wlad Klitchsko. But I don't see Charles beating Wlad if that makes any sense. And many of the 200 plus heavies of the 60s and 70s for me fall into that category. Heavies who could be formidable vs modern heavies but still possibly lose to old time heavies.

[QueensburyRules]

Correct. Even a prime Foreman would be considered only an average size heavy today at 6'3 220 pounds.

--- Foreman was being trained down in the day including dehydration the day before the fight.

He got a new trainer and more properly 230 when he retired and would be an easy 240 in the 12 rd era.