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**LITTLE JOE** · 08-15-2019, 08:46 AM

Nice !

Bob Fitzsimmons is boxing's equivalent of an old west Gunfighter called "The Widowmaker".

**Eff Pandas** · 08-15-2019, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by LITTLE JOE View Post

Nice !

Bob Fitzsimmons is boxing's equivalent of an old west Gunfighter called "The Widowmaker".

Is it that or is it that boxing records from that far back are just not as complete plus their are unknown aliases or other issues.

I think it's the latter most likely.

Still cool idea for a thread and I'll be checking up on this as it fills out.

**OctoberRed** · 08-15-2019, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by LITTLE JOE View Post

Nice !

Bob Fitzsimmons is boxing's equivalent of an old west Gunfighter called "The Widowmaker".

Yes indeed.

**Marchegiano** · 08-16-2019, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by Eff Pandas View Post

Is it that or is it that boxing records from that far back are just not as complete plus their are unknown aliases or other issues.

I think it's the latter most likely.

Still cool idea for a thread and I'll be checking up on this as it fills out.

Honestly, and I am still kinda early to be speaking on, but, I think unless the setting is just right you do kind of need power or really demoralizing skills.

The debuts early in a career I'm a bit forgiving of because they could just as easily be bad luck as they could be fixed in some manner.

The later ones I think are just ye olden squash matches. To keep busy and get some money. Thing is if you're just a bar tough willing to scrap for a few bucks and you get in there against unassuming as **** Bob, I can see Bob hurtings fellas in a manner they just were not ready for and taking away a rougher image of what boxing is then what Bob showed them.

In no way am i saying he retired good fighters, I don't really think one should expect good fighters to be on a retired list. Who was a great fighter who retired in their prime on a loss? I'd've highlighted that fella if I knew him right off hand, even non-heavyweights, but I just don't know of any.

Also I don't intend to say there was no dirtiness or fixery. Probably given the times. I mean a cab driver in the ring with bob is kinda a fix even if the cabby is going to really have a go. It's just that during the bare knuckle era, which Bob was in a little of, there are quite a few simple walk on champions. Debuts who were not even trained they were just like the local blacksmith or butcher etc. when the champ came into town and issued the "any man" challenge those any men sometimes won.

So, in conclusion,

I reckon atm I'm giving Bob-o benefit of the doubt. Sure, loads of them are probably sketchy especially by today's standards, but, I also think that was just a side effect of still having debuts fighting career pro boxers.

It goes on basically until the Ali era too. You see the number of retirements dwindle quickly. Sanctioning bodies come in right after Bob during Johnson's reign, then by the end of Marciano's they're kind of splitting up behind the scenes so by Ali's you know they've fractured into warring factions whose purpose is to be the more professional and highly esteemed authority.

By the time Tyson's around you don't really see debuts later in a boxer's career. Although, you still see it to this day, it's just more rare and I don't think about HW champion has had that luxury in their career since maybe Johannson...I'd have to look again to be sure.

It was something I was going to dig into once I'd posted all the names and numbers. What exactly ended squash matches being debuts and started squash matches being journeymen and no hopers like Tyson-Otto.

Fitzs himself is a whole subject alone. I'd dig into his validity later. To be fair to the present if we're going to say things like **** Pac's 8 weight divisions because they didn't exist in Armstrong's time then we should be fair and take a look at things that changed and limit boxer's ability to sell themselves.

Because knocking 28 men out of the sport is impactful as ****, but, Deontay don't have the option of fighting men who only go by one name and have no training let alone any experience in the ring.

It's been interesting for me to say the least.

**Eff Pandas** · 08-16-2019, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by Marchegiano View Post

Honestly, and I am still kinda early to be speaking on, but, I think unless the setting is just right you do kind of need power or really demoralizing skills.

The debuts early in a career I'm a bit forgiving of because they could just as easily be bad luck as they could be fixed in some manner.

Idk man. I think maybe record keeping wasn't so good 120, 130 years ago.

Also I think the sport has changed greatly & mfers could legit come outta the audience to fight.

I mean just look at the 28 guys Bob allegedly retired. Of the 28 , 23 had 1 fight, vs Bob & thats it obviously. Who even fights 23 guys making their pro debut. So assuming the records are correct do you think that if Tyson, Liston, Foreman or Dempsey had fought 23 guys making their pro debut they all wouldn't immediately retire from the sport they just began supposedly.

But I mean the numbers are the numbers, but I just don't buy that Bob, or John L's for that matter too who also retired mostly 1 fight vets, was retiring legit boxers if these figures are even correct or Bob was breaking souls of true boxers. If anything they were insuring blacksmiths & cowboys would continue blacksmithing & cowboying.

Not trying to bust your balls or Bob's or John L's just saying idk that these figures mean what they are implied to mean that Bob is doing something a number of guys couldn't do in a similar situation.

**Marchegiano** · 08-16-2019, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by Eff Pandas View Post

Idk man. I think maybe record keeping wasn't so good 120, 130 years ago.

Also I think the sport has changed greatly & mfers could legit come outta the audience to fight.

I mean just look at the 28 guys Bob allegedly retired. Of the 28 , 23 had 1 fight, vs Bob & thats it obviously. Who even fights 23 guys making their pro debut. So assuming the records are correct do you think that if Tyson, Liston, Foreman or Dempsey had fought 23 guys making their pro debut they all wouldn't immediately retire from the sport they just began supposedly.

But I mean the numbers are the numbers, but I just don't buy that Bob, or John L's for that matter too who also retired mostly 1 fight vets, was retiring legit boxers if these figures are even correct or Bob was breaking souls of true boxers. If anything they were insuring blacksmiths & cowboys would continue blacksmithing & cowboying.

Not trying to bust your balls or Bob's or John L's just saying idk that these figures mean what they are implied to mean that Bob is doing something a number of guys couldn't do in a similar situation.

Oh no I get you, maybe I wrote that too forgivingly. I was just trying to offer some doubt to the skepticism, or belief in the myth, however you like to see it.

It's really hard to defend a champion fighting a debut.

I was blown away with the debuts on 80s records....that's kinda crazy.

**QueensburyRules** · 08-16-2019, 03:39 PM

- -Boxrec can never know the full records of early days.

**Marchegiano** · 08-16-2019, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by QueensburyRules View Post

- -Boxrec can never know the full records of early days.

I'll redo based on CBZ records if you like, but, yeah...early records, even if you use source material, are kind of iffey, but, also, it's pretty safe to assume most debuts on boxrec were in fact debuts. Like I told Panda, walk ons were not uncommon for most of boxing history.

**Marchegiano** · 08-18-2019, 10:50 AM

Okay, finished with the main champions, real champs + "regular" champs but obviously I'm just being nice to the regs.

I'll throw in Lee for his IBU, and Maher for Corbett's bull, and the colored HW champions from the colorline. Then, reckon there ain't much more to do here.

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