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Old 11-28-2020, 10:14 AM #11
travestyny travestyny is offline
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By the way, I contacted Boxrec yesterday, and they have already corrected Harry Wills DOB!
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It should be recognized that the footage that some of you choose to judge him on, he was in fact 3 years older than we thought. I don't know if there was ever any footage of prime Wills.

Last edited by travestyny; 11-28-2020 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 11-28-2020, 01:09 PM #12
GhostofDempsey GhostofDempsey is online now
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Originally Posted by ShoulderRoll View Post
Invalid point.

He fought prime Jose Luis Castillo. Twice. Just to give one example.
Castillo was not an elite fighter. Floyd arguably lost the first fight in the eyes of many fans and sportswriters.
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Old 11-28-2020, 03:45 PM #13
ShoulderRoll ShoulderRoll is offline
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Originally Posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
Castillo was not an elite fighter. Floyd arguably lost the first fight in the eyes of many fans and sportswriters.
What's your definition of an elite fighter?
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Old 11-28-2020, 03:55 PM #14
billeau2 billeau2 is offline
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Originally Posted by travestyny View Post
You mean Firpo? Wills didn't lose to Firpo. Reports had Wills winning every round, and he also dropped Firpo in round 2.
Well Ill be damned. I apologize. I was sure he had lost to Firpo all these years! I really do not know how I got that fight turned around!
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Old 11-28-2020, 03:58 PM #15
billeau2 billeau2 is offline
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Originally Posted by billeau2 View Post
Well Ill be damned. I apologize. I was sure he had lost to Firpo all these years! I really do not know how I got that fight turned around!
I am reading that the fight was a decision on Boxrec

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You say it was in the second... I have a feeling that there is a lot of false info going on about this fight...

Just trying to figure out why I had this so backwards.


Ok...
I figured out why I got it wrong... lol. Confused him with Paulo U.

Last edited by billeau2; 11-28-2020 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 11-28-2020, 04:04 PM #16
billeau2 billeau2 is offline
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Originally Posted by ShoulderRoll View Post
Invalid point.

He fought prime Jose Luis Castillo. Twice. Just to give one example.
Not at ATG...
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Old 11-28-2020, 04:06 PM #17
ShoulderRoll ShoulderRoll is offline
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Originally Posted by billeau2 View Post
Not at ATG...
Whats your definition of all-time great? And think carefully before you answer because I'm going to apply it to Jack Dempsey's opponents.
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Old 11-28-2020, 04:15 PM #18
billeau2 billeau2 is offline
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Originally Posted by ShoulderRoll View Post
Whats your definition of all-time great? And think carefully before you answer because I'm going to apply it to Jack Dempsey's opponents.
Why? Look Im saying this nicely because I really do appreciate your presence here... But you are clueless regarding my argument about Dempsey vs Mayweather...

Again: When did I EVER say Dempsey Won a fight against a fellow ATG?

Dempsey, in fact, never won a match against a fellow ATG... And neither did most heavyweight champs, at least prime for prime.


Regarding the first question? Lets make it easy: Compare Tunney who Dempsey lost to to Castillo. Compare Duran to Castillo...who beat Sugar Ray and lost the second fight... compare Lamotta to Castillo...

Now compare Castillo to Fullmur, who was a tough, Hombre, but no ATG really... compare Basillo to Castillo.... closer but Casillo may have gotten the nod in many eyes while no one would mistake Castillo for an ATG.
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Old 11-28-2020, 04:20 PM #19
ShoulderRoll ShoulderRoll is offline
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Originally Posted by billeau2 View Post
Why? Look Im saying this nicely because I really do appreciate your presence here... But you are clueless regarding my argument about Dempsey vs Mayweather...

Again: When did I EVER say Dempsey Won a fight against a fellow ATG?

Dempsey, in fact, never won a match against a fellow ATG... And neither did most heavyweight champs, at least prime for prime.


Regarding the first question? Lets make it easy: Compare Tunney who Dempsey lost to to Castillo. Compare Duran to Castillo...who beat Sugar Ray and lost the second fight... compare Lamotta to Castillo...

Now compare Castillo to Fullmur, who was a tough, Hombre, but no ATG really... compare Basillo to Castillo.... closer but Casillo may have gotten the nod in many eyes while no one would mistake Castillo for an ATG.
Don't hem and haw with vague generalities.

Give me a specific definition of what you think makes an all-time great.
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Old 11-28-2020, 05:10 PM #20
billeau2 billeau2 is offline
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Originally Posted by ShoulderRoll View Post
Don't hem and haw with vague generalities.

Give me a specific definition of what you think makes an all-time great.
Some things are better defined through comparison... If you tell me a Black kid who was raised by an abusive family, was kicked out, and shot another kid is "really evil." I can accept that, I can offer a textbook definition of sociopathy/psychopathy... but probably the best thing I could do is say something along the lines of: "I don't know what you mean by 'really' evil, but compared to Charlie Manson...that kid is an angel."

When we evaluate fighters... if there was a textbook way of showing hierarchy we could fold this very section up and away...

There is no singular thing that makes an ATG, there is consensus... If I say Gatti was great, I would get some acquiescence for sure... But I guarantee you ultimately it would come out that, while he was a great presence, he was not a great fighter. Not for any particular reason either...

Your asking me to do the equivalent of prove a negative... It does not make sense logically to do so anymore than trying to set up a textbook criteria for ATG status.

So sorry will have to pass on this one. And I lied I will tell you one more logical fallicy in the hopes you will not commit it: Saying that because one cannot prove a criteria for ATG that Castillo is one, is absurd.

Last edited by billeau2; 11-28-2020 at 05:14 PM.
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