Boxing styles/techniques that are endangered or extinct

[grunt88]

I have frequently read that back in the day, boxing used to occupy a much greater role in our culture than it does now. I'm not just talking about its popularity as a sport. I'm also talking about people actually participating in boxing. I have read and heard from old timers that cities used to be inundated with boxing gyms. Sadly, this isn't the case anymore.

So, I'm curious. Are there styles or techniques of boxing that are either endangered or have basically died out?

I'm mostly referring to boxing in America, though others are welcome to offer their input.

[OctoberRed]

I have frequently read that back in the day, boxing used to occupy a much greater role in our culture than it does now. I'm not just talking about its popularity as a sport. I'm also talking about people actually participating in boxing. I have read and heard from old timers that cities used to be inundated with boxing gyms. Sadly, this isn't the case anymore.

So, I'm curious. Are there styles or techniques of boxing that are either endangered or have basically died out?

I'm mostly referring to boxing in America, though others are welcome to offer their input.

I actually believe that Mayweather-style, that style of fighting, is dead.

Nobody else does it because nobody can do it as well as him.

Some have tried, like Broner and Berto, and failed miserably.

[billeau2]

I have frequently read that back in the day, boxing used to occupy a much greater role in our culture than it does now. I'm not just talking about its popularity as a sport. I'm also talking about people actually participating in boxing. I have read and heard from old timers that cities used to be inundated with boxing gyms. Sadly, this isn't the case anymore.

So, I'm curious. Are there styles or techniques of boxing that are either endangered or have basically died out?

I'm mostly referring to boxing in America, though others are welcome to offer their input.

Grunt

This topic is fascinating to me. The answer to your question is a resounding YES! To first understand boxing you have to understand fencing. Boxing was developed, much the way Japanese Aikido was developed, to be an art of the blade with no blade. And boxing and Aikido have the exact same number of techniques with the blade...

Boxing was a way of dueling James Figg the father of what we consider modern fisticuffs theory and practice was a bladesman, a fencer by trade and was the first champion of the heavyweights.

What gets argued here is something that is really not understood about the older fighting techniques: the art was in the footwork, so when guys see the way blows were thrown, and laugh, they don't often understand the context for these blows and how they were set up. Like fencing, the original fighters used traps, fought from all ranges, used grappling techniques, and did many things fighters couldn't do fifty years ago...things like using the gloves to pick off shots as a counterpunch...in fencing this is a parry, and what looks easy is not so easy because the hand has to move in a circle to move the picked punch off line!

Centerline theory, something Bruce Lee brought back, and something in fencing, was also used in boxing, all the old guys even in the forties were still setting up with a false center line, head off the shoulder line so it looked easy to hit but was always out of range and protected by the shoulder. bernard Hopkins learned to do this. Gans was a master at this.

The techniques for hitting were familiar to martial artists, especially Hsin Yi Chinese straight line boxing...the foot and hand hit at the same time, this transferring power into the target, Dempsey discusses this at length in his excellent book on boxing which you can find here on this site and on line as a pdf.

It is generally acknowledged that guys like Blackburn and Goldman modernized punching, and they did a fantastic job! the guys who came up in this era did change certain principles and evolved certain things, but certain things were lost also...

If you want to see a comparison of the orthodox old style at its best, versus the new modern style, watch Dempsey against Tunney. Tunney is in a sense the last guy to fight in the orthodox fencing dictated manner...and Dempsey is the first guy to fight in the new style with its emphasis on weight forward, a jab instead of a lead, (bigger gloves made the lead obsolete, so the hand turns over and we get the jab!) and the different fighting distance, etc. One can see how both styles look against each other because two of the best are going at it!

I would be glad to dicuss this anytime, this is a great topic with a lot of interesting rabbit punches, I mean rabbit holes.

[NChristo]

The shoulder roll is always going to be a part of the sport if that's what you're reffering to by "Mayweather style", there's always been boxers who try but aren't the most profficient with it,

Don't see too many boxers with the peek-a-boo style anymore, don't just mean just D'Amato's style because that's obviously never going to return untill we get another trainer that specializes in it.

Don't see too much of the "crab" defense, e.g Kenny Norton, Tim Witherspoon, Archie Moore, Grandad Foreman, not extinct but not exactly common.

"Wrestling" was a big part of the sport back in thee olden days.

[grunt88]

I actually believe that Mayweather-style, that style of fighting, is dead.

I’m not sure if I’d classify it as dead just yet. At least the most well-known exponents of this style are still around (the Mayweather family). They’re still training youngsters, so it’s just enough to establish a lineage that can guarantee its future. Also, there must be some remnants in Michigan still teaching this style.

This topic is fascinating to me. The answer to your question is a resounding YES!

The historical form you detailed in your post is quite fascinating. I have read before that the London Prize Ring rules allowed for trips and throws, and that these techniques disappeared with the advent of the Queensberry rules. You know, there is a whole movement dedicated to recreating the historical European martial arts – mostly with weapons. I wonder if the techniques of boxing in these early days could be similarly recreated using extant literature from that era. It would be really interesting to see what kind of trips and throws they utilized.

Don't see too many boxers with the peek-a-boo style anymore, don't just mean just D'Amato's style because that's obviously never going to return untill we get another trainer that specializes in it.

Apparently, there are some gyms that branched out which still teach it.
One other technique that I have heard as being ‘lost’ is the art of infighting.

[OctoberRed]

I’m not sure if I’d classify it as dead just yet. At least the most well-known exponents of this style are still around (the Mayweather family). They’re still training youngsters, so it’s just enough to establish a lineage that can guarantee its future. Also, there must be some remnants in Michigan still teaching this style.

The historical form you detailed in your post is quite fascinating. I have read before that the London Prize Ring rules allowed for trips and throws, and that these techniques disappeared with the advent of the Queensberry rules. You know, there is a whole movement dedicated to recreating the historical European martial arts – mostly with weapons. I wonder if the techniques of boxing in these early days could be similarly recreated using extant literature from that era. It would be really interesting to see what kind of trips and throws they utilized.

Apparently, there are some gyms that branched out which still teach it.
One other technique that I have heard as being ‘lost’ is the art of infighting.

Most of the guys I've seen the Mayweather brothers train, none of them fight even close to that style.

[The Old LefHook]

Grunt

This topic is fascinating to me. The answer to your question is a resounding YES! To first understand boxing you have to understand fencing. Boxing was developed, much the way Japanese Aikido was developed, to be an art of the blade with no blade. And boxing and Aikido have the exact same number of techniques with the blade...

Boxing was a way of dueling James Figg the father of what we consider modern fisticuffs theory and practice was a bladesman, a fencer by trade and was the first champion of the heavyweights.

What gets argued here is something that is really not understood about the older fighting techniques: the art was in the footwork, so when guys see the way blows were thrown, and laugh, they don't often understand the context for these blows and how they were set up. Like fencing, the original fighters used traps, fought from all ranges, used grappling techniques, and did many things fighters couldn't do fifty years ago...things like using the gloves to pick off shots as a counterpunch...in fencing this is a parry, and what looks easy is not so easy because the hand has to move in a circle to move the picked punch off line!

Centerline theory, something Bruce Lee brought back, and something in fencing, was also used in boxing, all the old guys even in the forties were still setting up with a false center line, head off the shoulder line so it looked easy to hit but was always out of range and protected by the shoulder. bernard Hopkins learned to do this. Gans was a master at this.

The techniques for hitting were familiar to martial artists, especially Hsin Yi Chinese straight line boxing...the foot and hand hit at the same time, this transferring power into the target, Dempsey discusses this at length in his excellent book on boxing which you can find here on this site and on line as a pdf.

It is generally acknowledged that guys like Blackburn and Goldman modernized punching, and they did a fantastic job! the guys who came up in this era did change certain principles and evolved certain things, but certain things were lost also...

If you want to see a comparison of the orthodox old style at its best, versus the new modern style, watch Dempsey against Tunney. Tunney is in a sense the last guy to fight in the orthodox fencing dictated manner...and Dempsey is the first guy to fight in the new style with its emphasis on weight forward, a jab instead of a lead, (bigger gloves made the lead obsolete, so the hand turns over and we get the jab!) and the different fighting distance, etc. One can see how both styles look against each other because two of the best are going at it!

I would be glad to dicuss this anytime, this is a great topic with a lot of interesting rabbit punches, I mean rabbit holes.

The above post contains a wealth of information I believe is accurate.

I have seen the pictorial sheets Connie Wills used for training his fighters in the Gibbons style. I am telling you for sure there were a lot of footwork traps. Some of the moves were extremely involved like dance steps and had to be practiced for years.

[NChristo]

Apparently, there are some gyms that branched out which still teach it.
One other technique that I have heard as being ‘lost’ is the art of infighting.

It's not as prevalent as it used to be but it's not lost.

[grunt88]

The above post contains a wealth of information I believe is accurate.

I have seen the pictorial sheets Connie Wills used for training his fighters in the Gibbons style. I am telling you for sure there were a lot of footwork traps. Some of the moves were extremely involved like dance steps and had to be practiced for years.

Very interesting, thank you!

[billeau2]

I’m not sure if I’d classify it as dead just yet. At least the most well-known exponents of this style are still around (the Mayweather family). They’re still training youngsters, so it’s just enough to establish a lineage that can guarantee its future. Also, there must be some remnants in Michigan still teaching this style.

The historical form you detailed in your post is quite fascinating. I have read before that the London Prize Ring rules allowed for trips and throws, and that these techniques disappeared with the advent of the Queensberry rules. You know, there is a whole movement dedicated to recreating the historical European martial arts – mostly with weapons. I wonder if the techniques of boxing in these early days could be similarly recreated using extant literature from that era. It would be really interesting to see what kind of trips and throws they utilized.

Apparently, there are some gyms that branched out which still teach it.
One other technique that I have heard as being ‘lost’ is the art of infighting.

The reenactment societies are wonderful. They are honest about what they do and have a lot of fun doing it. The older style of boxing can still be taught actively. The techniques are all known and documented. There is no living teacher around who will teach it but in our cultural context we don't need that imprompture to make something authentic.

Heres a clue If you take off the gloves, or put on training gloves, you will understand a good bit of why the techniques changed. If you take a Wing Chun practicioner and put boxing gloves on him he is useless for the same reason.

A lot of the older techniques depend on structure and bone to bone transmission and not brute speed and mass to be succesful. So if I throw a jab, I violently snap and pronate my wrist and this gives the punch its power. If I throw a lead, first of all it cannot work with a big glove, and when used properly I hardly move the arm, I simply move off line and hit right at the chin tip, or just to the side, in a straight line as I drop my weight and snap the punch off. When done properly this is a KO punch because the brain cannot shake when he hand hits the chin right and thus the brain absorbs the full impact. But the bones of the hand the fist, have to connect directly to the mandible process (the chin tip), and the weight has to drop as the hand hits and as the foot hits.

I mention this technique because if you understand the difference between the lead and the jab you will understand the scientific theories that differentiate the old way from the modern way. Dempsey says it best..."take a step but let your weight make you put your foot down and extend that arm hard as you can." That is generating external force, its the same way a Chinese Boxer doing linear hard style generates force (hsin Yi).... This is what Blackburn refined and taught to Louis as the modern way.

On the other hand when we see footwork, timing and hand placement that is exact, and the punch does not even look like a punch, but the man drops, that is the connection, the old way.

Just wanted to say a lot of ignorance regarding the old ways come from people who do not know what they are looking at. A good lead also comes BELOW the sight line and may appear much as a phantom punch, or look positively goofy!