The Liston/Ali fights were fixed...

[JAB5239]

I think the second fight may have been fixed, but im note to sure about the first fight. Liston tried to win that and was broken down physically and metaly.

The second fight certainly LOOKS more shady than the first, but where is the fix? Any man can get dropped by a punch they don't see coming. Liston was hurt, but not out. Had Ali gone to the nuetral corner maybe this debate never happens. If Walcott had assumed contol as the referee, maybe this debate never happens. But these thing didn't happen and it becomes ammunition for the conspiricy theorists to use. I see plenty of evidence of a poorly handled fight, yet virtually none of a fix. Jmo.

[TheGreatA]

Now that I've read the first post, there are a lot of inaccuracies and exaggerations in there.

Sonny Liston destroyed all of the top-ranked heavyweights of his day (except for the ones who refused to fight him), including Zora Folley, Eddie Machen and Cleveland Williams.

Liston hardly 'destroyed' Eddie Machen who went the distance with Sonny (Liston lost 3 points for low blows). Was this fight fixed?

Nobody ever knocked Sonny Liston down with one punch - except Muhammad Ali...

I guess Liston threw this fight as well.



Mac Foster famously knocked out Liston in sparring. He wasn't invincible.

Ali clearly hurt Liston several times during the first fight, Williams landed some bombs too that had Liston on the defensive.

Henry Cooper knocked Ali down (and almost out) with one punch. Chuck Wepner knocked Ali down with one punch. Joe Frazier knocked Ali down with one punch. Sonny Banks knocked Ali down with one punch.

You should've left the Chuck Wepner knockdown out. What a joke.

Ali had one of the best chin's in boxing history, taking punches from Foreman, Shavers, Liston and Frazier.

No normal man could take the punishment he took from Shavers at around 6 minutes.

Earnie Shavers
Uploaded by TheGreatA

Liston routinely knocked fighters' senseless with his JAB (he also knocked more than a few heavyweights' TEETH out with that same left jab). And his right hand was absolutely fearsome. Sonny could knock you out with either hand.

But, mysteriously, when he fought Ali the first time, he threw a total of maybe FIVE right hands during the entire fight. And most of those right hands were fly-swatter punches.

Liston tried to land his right several times but couldn't catch Ali.

As a smart boxer he knew that Ali was vulnerable to the left hook and landed many of them, some of which hurt Ali.

Liston fought all kinds of boxers but never a mover like Ali.

[The Iron Man]

The second fight certainly LOOKS more shady than the first, but where is the fix? Any man can get dropped by a punch they don't see coming. Liston was hurt, but not out. Had Ali gone to the nuetral corner maybe this debate never happens. If Walcott had assumed contol as the referee, maybe this debate never happens. But these thing didn't happen and it becomes ammunition for the conspiricy theorists to use. I see plenty of evidence of a poorly handled fight, yet virtually none of a fix. Jmo.

Yeh they are great points, im not fully convinced that it was fixed. But i can see how people argue that it was. I dont accept it was fixed but do not fully dismiss the possibility.

[black.ink]

I'm not so sure about the first fight, but my thoughts on the second fight are that when Liston got knocked down, Ali did not leave to the neutral corner where Walcotts amateurish refereeing on starting a ten count were halted. As Liston was stumbling to his feet, Nat Fleischer informed Mr Walcott that Liston had been on the deck for about 17 seconds. This was incorrect, as Ali did not leave to the corner so no count could be started (made famous by the Tunney/Dempsey 'long count' debacle). The fight was stopped because of this, but wether Ali's punch really affected Liston is debatable as the scenes evolving in the ring and out of it with Liston after the punch are suspicious.

My thoughts are the second fight was a fix. Not the first.

[JAB5239]

Now that I've read the first post, there are a lot of inaccuracies and exaggerations in there.



Liston hardly 'destroyed' Eddie Machen who went the distance with Sonny (Liston lost 3 points for low blows). Was this fight fixed?



I guess Liston threw this fight as well.



Mac Foster famously knocked out Liston in sparring. He wasn't invincible.

Ali clearly hurt Liston several times during the first fight, Williams landed some bombs too that had Liston on the defensive.



You should've left the Chuck Wepner knockdown out. What a joke.

Ali had one of the best chin's in boxing history, taking punches from Foreman, Shavers, Liston and Frazier.

No normal man could take the punishment he took from Shavers at around 6 minutes.

Earnie Shavers
Uploaded by TheGreatA

Liston tried to land his right several times but couldn't catch Ali.

As a smart boxer he knew that Ali was vulnerable to the left hook and landed many of them, some of which hurt Ali.

Liston fought all kinds of boxers but never a mover like Ali.

The Manchine.....cutting down arguments like a lumberjack cuts down trees!!

[JAB5239]

Yeh they are great points, im not fully convinced that it was fixed. But i can see how people argue that it was. I dont accept it was fixed but do not fully dismiss the possibility.

This I can understand and respect because there are some unanwered questions, yet still no concrete proof of the fix being in.

[TheGreatA]

The Manchine.....cutting down arguments like a lumberjack cuts down trees!!

I did not even want to go into the rumours about Liston KO'ing six policemen and all that.

I don't understand why it is so hard to believe that a man likely in his mid/late 30's (who had only fought a couple of rounds in the last few years) was not able to catch a quick 20 year old who went on to become one of the greatest, if not THE greatest heavyweight of all time.

Most of Liston's opponents stood in front of him and Sonny ate them up. The ones who ran were the ones who had minor success.

Ali could move better than anyone and Liston was not in the condition to chase him for 15 rounds.

[JAB5239]

I'm not so sure about the first fight, but my thoughts on the second fight are that when Liston got knocked down, Ali did not leave to the neutral corner where Walcotts amateurish refereeing on starting a ten count were halted. As Liston was stumbling to his feet, Nat Fleischer informed Mr Walcott that Liston had been on the deck for about 17 seconds. This was incorrect, as Ali did not leave to the corner so no count could be started (made famous by the Tunney/Dempsey 'long count' debacle). The fight was stopped because of this, but wether Ali's punch really affected Liston is debatable as the scenes evolving in the ring and out of it with Liston after the punch are suspicious.

My thoughts are the second fight was a fix. Not the first.

I still don't see evidence of a fix, my friend. Just a poorly maneaged fight by the referee. There is no doubt the punch landed and that Sonny was moving into it and was legitimetly dropped. The seen gets somewhat murkier with the chaos the ensues after the knockdown. But I still don't see where sonny took a dive. He was not counted out. He did get up and start fighting again. The problem was Joe walcott, and that is where the blame should lay. ?That said, I don't think Sonny stood aq chance even if the fight were allowed to continue. He was psychologicly whipped and really didn't want to be fighting Ali in my opinion.

[JAB5239]

[QUOTE=TheManchine;4186084]I did not even want to go into the rumours about Liston KO'ing six policemen and all that.

I don't understand why it is so hard to believe that a man likely in his mid/late 30's (who had only fought a couple of rounds in the last few years) was not able to catch a quick 20 year old who went on to become one of the greatest, if not THE greatest heavyweight of all time.

Most of Liston's opponents stood in front of him and Sonny ate them up. The ones who ran were the ones who had minor success.

Ali could move better than anyone and Liston was not in the condition to chase him for 15 rounds.[/QUOTE]

Add all this up with the fact that Ali wouldn't be intimidated by Liston and the obvious becomes even more crystal clear if you have an open mind.

[The Jackal]

[/B]

This I can understand and respect because there are some unanwered questions, yet still no concrete proof of the fix being in.

The first fight was not a fix because in 2 previous fights Liston was finding the fight hard so he used the eye irritation in both fights it done the trick & so in the first with Ali he tried it again when the well was dry but Angelo Dundee told him to run for round 5 & Ali licked him when recovered.
Fight 2 is 1 we will never no but why did Ali shout at Liston get up you bum nobody will believe this & lets not forget the Mob & the Nation Of Islam were controlling both fighter's

Who knows but 1 thing can't be over looked is Liston got caught & would never have seen it coming but the only thing that can leave douth is Liston rolling a round on the ground it was dramatic to say the least