The GOAT HW - Joe Louis vs Muhammad Ali

[Szef]

Of course the story is relevant. Everything is relevant if we are discussing all this sh^t.

And idk what toughness gots to do with Tyson being the guy with more tools. Foreman had power no doubt, but thats all he had. I mean f#ck man this ain't that complicated. Go watch some young foreman or old foreman fights it don't even matter. Then go watch Tyson's first 30 odd fights. Look at the sh^t Tyson was doing in the ring.

And granted as we've gone on about Tyson did start phoning it in way too young, but Foreman never looked as good as young Tyson did.

what do you mean toughness have nothing to do with tyson being more skilled?

who says foreman is more skilled?

he obviously isn't.

what we are talkling about is who is the better fighter? who is the tougher fighter?

tyson had great potenatial. like i said he is the biggest 'what if' in the history of the sport.

but that is all he is.

foreman has SMASHED another ATG in Joe Frazier.

Tyson did not,

[Offic.Scorecard]

Good post. I won’t get into a point-by-point; suffice it to say, I agree with some ideas and not with others. I think you have a valid argument as to why Ali is overrated. Nonetheless, I believe Ali deserves his reputation. Some boxing experts rate him not only as the greatest HW of all time, but the greatest boxer ever. That said, it might come as a surprise that I consider Louis possibly the greater heavyweight. It’s splitting hairs at this level, and one opinion is as good as the next.



I feel the same way about this. Tyson is way overrated by those who don’t know heavyweight history. But I’ve always said, on his best night, Mike Tyson was capable of beating any man that ever set foot inside a ring. He might be overrated, but that’s saying something.

Ali was great no doubt but the guys who gave him problems in the 70's would have given him the same problems in the 60's. I give him props for beating Foreman while being past his prime, however his fanboys always chose to forget that he beat Foreman who was being captivated in Africa for a month. It's funny to me when I hear people saying Iron Mike was a mental midget in his prime. Past his prime yes but in his prime he was a total opposite - in fact one of the best mentally focused fighters in his prime. His only problem is that during his prime he didn't have any ATG fighter to beat except the old Holmes (although I'd still have him beating prime Holmes). To cut it short: Tyson didn't have a great resume (despite still beating very good fighters), but at the same time in my opinion was the best in H2H comparisons. Cus loved Ali and still claimed Louis would have beaten him for a reason. In fact I'd give Ali a chance of stopping Louis late, but I would still favor Louis over him.

[M Bison]

Ali had the harder career, Ali was in the better era with much tougher competition. Muhammad Ali for me in that case.

[Boksfan]

Larry Holmes.

[CubanGuyNYC]

Ali was great no doubt but the guys who gave him problems in the 70's would have given him the same problems in the 60's. I give him props for beating Foreman while being past his prime, however his fanboys always chose to forget that he beat Foreman who was being captivated in Africa for a month. It's funny to me when I hear people saying Iron Mike was a mental midget in his prime. Past his prime yes but in his prime he was a total opposite - in fact one of the best mentally focused fighters in his prime. His only problem is that during his prime he didn't have any ATG fighter to beat except the old Holmes (although I'd still have him beating prime Holmes). To cut it short: Tyson didn't have a great resume (despite still beating very good fighters), but at the same time in my opinion was the best in H2H comparisons. Cus loved Ali and still claimed Louis would have beaten him for a reason. In fact I'd give Ali a chance of stopping Louis late, but I would still favor Louis over him.

Good post. It’s all fun to discuss, and that’s why we do it, but in the end, it’s all opinion, conjecture. As great a boxing figure as Cus was, he might’ve been terribly wrong about the outcome between Louis and Ali. We’ve seen it all before: boxing great choosing the wrong man to win in a fight among current boxers. What then of the fantasy match-ups? Lol

[Eff Pandas]

what do you mean toughness have nothing to do with tyson being more skilled?

Idk I'm still trying to find out why toughness came into the conversation.

who says foreman is more skilled?

he obviously isn't.

Then we agree.

what we are talkling about is who is the better fighter? who is the tougher fighter?

I say Tyson EASY was the better fighter. Foreman never had a run like Tyson did. He has one of the most embarrassing reigns in the history of the HW division in his 2nd reign & I think he got 2 defenses in during his young Foreman years. Tyson was the man from 86 to 90. And then even when he was well into coasting he won a belt or two & kept some belts for a year or so iirc.

And again with the toughness. Idk what toughness has to do all that much with anything.

tyson had great potenatial. like i said he is the biggest 'what if' in the history of the sport.

Tyson was the HW champion from 86 to 90 & 96 to 97 or something like that. He did okay on potential. He's less of a what if then you are making him out to be. Granted we all expected more of him, but things landed how they landed & I suspect if most HW champions in history got as much as Tyson got so quickly & so young I'd suspect most of them would have fallen off quicker than Tyson.

foreman has SMASHED another ATG in Joe Frazier.

Tyson did not,

Thats just the luck of history for Ali, Frazier & Foreman with each other. If Tyrell Biggs woulda became some star then Tyson woulda had some Olympic star on his resume. If their had been a 1980 US Olympic team at all maybe Tyson coulda fought that gold medalist & made his name bigger. Hell if Marvis Frazier had been better maybe Tyson woulda had a rival topple & gain him more respect. Who do you suppose 86 to 90 Tyson was to fight to get the rep Foreman did off of Frazier?

Its not Tyson's fault he was born to end up in a garbage HW era. Its his fault he fell off too soon, but that often can't be helped & like I said I think the insane success he had at too young of a age probably ruined him in my estimation. I suspect the Holyfield vs Tyson rivalry woulda been all the more entertaining if they had fought in 88 or 89 when one could argue Tyson woulda been more serious into boxing. Idk doe getting into some wider speculation now.

[Szef]

Idk I'm still trying to find out why toughness came into the conversation.



Then we agree.



I say Tyson EASY was the better fighter. Foreman never had a run like Tyson did. He has one of the most embarrassing reigns in the history of the HW division in his 2nd reign & I think he got 2 defenses in during his young Foreman years. Tyson was the man from 86 to 90. And then even when he was well into coasting he won a belt or two & kept some belts for a year or so iirc.

And again with the toughness. Idk what toughness has to do all that much with anything.



Tyson was the HW champion from 86 to 90 & 96 to 97 or something like that. He did okay on potential. He's less of a what if then you are making him out to be. Granted we all expected more of him, but things landed how they landed & I suspect if most HW champions in history got as much as Tyson got so quickly & so young I'd suspect most of them would have fallen off quicker than Tyson.



Thats just the luck of history for Ali, Frazier & Foreman with each other. If Tyrell Biggs woulda became some star then Tyson woulda had some Olympic star on his resume. If their had been a 1980 US Olympic team at all maybe Tyson coulda fought that gold medalist & made his name bigger. Hell if Marvis Frazier had been better maybe Tyson woulda had a rival topple & gain him more respect. Who do you suppose 86 to 90 Tyson was to fight to get the rep Foreman did off of Frazier?

Its not Tyson's fault he was born to end up in a garbage HW era. Its his fault he fell off too soon, but that often can't be helped & like I said I think the insane success he had at too young of a age probably ruined him in my estimation. I suspect the Holyfield vs Tyson rivalry woulda been all the more entertaining if they had essfought in 88 or 89 when one could argue Tyson woulda been more serious into boxing. Idk doe getting into some wider speculation now.

it came into the conversation becuae toughness was mike tyson's biggest flaw.

but his softeness overcomes his boxing ability imo.


he's not built for this sport.

idk, maybe he was for a short period of time like you said.

hell, maybe he even was the goat for that short period of time.

but he didn't sustain it.

george foreman would have fvvcked him up.

two completely diffrent types of fighters.

[Zaroku]

Joe Louis, is my hero... him plus Sugar Ray Robinson...

If they were alive... I’d pass out like a hoe trying to get an autograph...

[HeadBodyBodyBody]

Ali is hella overrated, too many inject celebrity and fame and politics into the question of greatness.

[TripleJ]

Joe Louis is my all time favorite fighter, and my pick for goat.