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Old 06-13-2017, 10:36 PM #21
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Originally Posted by Ray Corso View Post
The history of great fighters at Welter is pretty stacked, you don't think Kid Gavilan, Barney Ross, Emile Griffith, Jose Napoles, Henry Armstrong, Barbados Walcott, Tommy Hearns, Carmen Basilo,
Donald Curry, Charley Burley, Felix Trinidad............and others couldn't hang with him?
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If you are going to include Felix Trinidad on the list then shouldn't you include Oscar De La Hoya as well?
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:37 PM #22
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Originally Posted by The Old LefHook View Post
Duran seems to enjoy an unparalleled status in the minds of boxing fans. This is made more incredible by the fact that he outright quit in one of the biggest matches of all time. To restore his reputation after the bold stain of this dishonor would require something extra in the way of pugilistic heroics, which Duran indeed found within himself.

I will go out on a limb and say Duran is one of the greatest welterweights of all time, as well as a hot contender for greatest lightweight.

The nearest of all time greats to Duran in temperament, also happens to be near him in weight. Mickey Walker was at one time the welterweight champion, and moved up to become a small middleweight champion. Duran might have done that, too, if not for the presence of some very great middleweights roaming the division in his day. That is probably all that prevented it. Give Duran a mediocre division and champion, and he could easily have ruled that division for a while (with same day weigh-ins).

I am rock solid sure Duran is a top three AT lightweight. But I really do wonder about his AT credentials as a welterweight. The KO loss to Hearns reflects very badly. The same shots would have KO'd most welters. Duran was much too lackadaisical in that fight, as if he hadn't even considered that Tommy was not a man you should give all that punching room to while you relaxed for a few rounds. Talk about a lousy game plan! That is why I think his mind was not in the fight the way it should have been. I believe he could have done better, though not necessarily have won. It was possible for him to give a much better account of himself, even in defeat, I am saying. Hearns was great, and had every physical advantage, but he was not invincible. Duran probably did hit hard enough to daze Tommy, if not KO him outright.

One has to wonder if Mickey Walker would have fared much better against the Motor City Cobra that night. For danger, the instant fury of a Hearns attack at least matches in my mind the measured advance of Schmeling, a bigger man who KO'd Walker.

When I look around, I do not see a lot of welterweights in history I would bet on against Duran.

The questrion is: In a realistic world, is Duran a top ten all time welterweight?

I am quite willing to concede the spots of Robinson, Leonard and Hearns above him. My memory is not good today, I know I am forgetting names. The latin black they called butter, I can never remember his name. He has a lot of respect, but I do think he was rather average in the speed department, though a smooth boxer.

After you concede three or four positions at the top, isn't eveyone after that quite debatable? I do not feel there are any other welterweight shoo-ins against Duran, than the three named. I feel everyone else is debatable (though I am having a bad memory day, and may have forgotten some important names in the mix), so that he must come very close to top ten welterweight of all time, as well as a top three lightweight. I see no shoo-ins at lightweight against Hands of Stone at all, who was also a man whose skin practically refused to cut.

What do you think?
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Originally Posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
But then Vernon Forrest dominated Mosley. Duran was far superior to Forrest.

No shame in losing to Benitez, who I recall was considerably bigger than Duran. The problem for Duran is that he got lazy between fights. In the five months between his fights with Leonard, he gained up to 40 pounds, and was partying hard. He didn't have nearly enough time to condition himself for the rematch which was Leoanard's game plan after getting wind from one of his bodyguards that Duran was partying in nightclubs and put on a lot of weight.

Duran is easily a top-ten all-time welter and top three lightweight.
duran's best was at 135, at 147 there are too many other all time greats that i think would beat him, even mickey walker i think would beat duran. walker finished his career at 175, he had a great chin - he stood and traded with greb for 15 rounds, and i think both robinson and armstrong would knock him out
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Old 06-14-2017, 10:23 AM #23
The Old LefHook The Old LefHook is offline
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Some great posts in this thread, gentlemen. It might be closer to say Duran is at least hanging around the borders of the top ten welterweights than defintely placing him in the top ten. I think he was at least close. I do not feel guilty about rating a man at welterweight who only had 8 fights at the weight, when I saw him knock down Barkley at middleweight and stand toe to toe with Hagler.

There are welterweights I am pretty definite would handle him in their primes at that weight. He was close to prime himself, though not at his prime weight around the time of the Brooks, Palamino and first Leonard fights.

Robinson
Gavilan
Leonard
Hearns
Basilio
Walker
Benitez

All these guys are naturally larger. I cannot include guys like Curry, McCrory, et all, who proved too vulnerable in the long run.

Trinidad had a big size advantage, but he was not fast or versatile. I see that as a pick'em fight. Once Duran found your number, if you could not adjust, he was not going let up exploiting the weakness.

Duran had trouble with fleet footed runners, not boxers. He was a great technician himself. Benitez was of the stellar class of pure, defensive boxer, along with cats like Mayweather and Locche. He was that good. He was strong, though not a heavy puncher, and knew how to handle a smaller man. He was able to handle a smaller man of even Duran's caliber, because he is (arguably) one of the three greatest defensive boxers to ever inhabit the division. The Viruets were track stars of the ring. They lost to him anyway.

He beats Mosley handily at any weight. At super middle it could be a rugged fight, for sure. Mosley has speed and decent power, but he is not a great pure boxer, and he does not run. Mosley was courageous in the ring. But he will not beat Duran in the pocket, where this fight would take place.

Hoya, who actually won the second fight against Mosley, but was mildly robbed, would have a better chance against Duran because he was an outside mover with leg speed as well as hand. But, alas, he had two fatal flaws: he was essentially a one-handed fighter, and he pooped out in long, hard fights. Duran would end up mangling him over the second half of 15 rounds.

Someone like Locche can outbox him, but can the Argentine do enough along with all his fancy defense to win a decision?

It is possible Duran could be decisioned at welterweight by Mayweather, a man of roughly equal natural physical stature. His feet were quite quick enough to give Duran lots of problems. HIs hands were quick enough to land while Duran had those problems. Mayweather would attempt a gameplan similar to Leonard's in New Orleans. I rate this fight a pick'em at their best as welterweights.

I think Armstrong would lose to Duran, who I believe also would have beaten everyone Armstrong did. Duran is naturally larger than Hank, and Hank was a wide puncher, a swarmer. I think Duran eats him alive up the middle, in still a tough fight.

By my reckoning, Duran is still close to the top of the welterweight division, that is, close to being in the top 10, either that, or in it.

The thing is, though, there might be a lot more of these question marks hanging around than we realize, in the form of boxers from eras past we have lost intimate touch with. We usually know about the greats, however.

Do I see anyone else I feel for sure would beat Duran? Not positively, but Emile Griffith would give him a hell of a fight. Griffith lacked a huge wallop (his punch was decent, though), as most swarmers do, but he threw a lot of punches, and they were not friendly. He had one of the hardest bodies to ever step into a ring, immense stamina, and the will to fight of a cornered wolverine. But he liked wide punches as well (as most swarmers do), and could be undisciplined and wild at times. That I see as another pick'em fight.

Who else?

Last edited by The Old LefHook; 06-14-2017 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 06-14-2017, 02:43 PM #24
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Originally Posted by phallus View Post
duran's best was at 135, at 147 there are too many other all time greats that i think would beat him, even mickey walker i think would beat duran. walker finished his career at 175, he had a great chin - he stood and traded with greb for 15 rounds, and i think both robinson and armstrong would knock him out
Sorry I certainly do not agree with you about armstrong there is a huge difference in quality of between robinson and armstrong. a motivated duran would beat armstrong.
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Old 06-14-2017, 03:24 PM #25
GhostofDempsey GhostofDempsey is offline
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Originally Posted by phallus View Post
duran's best was at 135, at 147 there are too many other all time greats that i think would beat him, even mickey walker i think would beat duran. walker finished his career at 175, he had a great chin - he stood and traded with greb for 15 rounds, and i think both robinson and armstrong would knock him out
I agree that Robinson would beat him. Armstrong would be a great fight, but I give Duran the edge.

Fighters who I think would have had a chance at beating Duran at 147 are Luis Rodriquez, Jose Napoles, Emile Griffith, Basilio, DLH, Mickey Walker.

Then there are those who would have given him a good fight and possibly pulled off an upset--Curtis Cokes, Meldrick Taylor, Fritzie Zivic, Trinidad.

At 154 Terry Norris vs. Duran is a barn-burner. Anyone's fight.
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Old 06-14-2017, 04:44 PM #26
mikeg1224 mikeg1224 is offline
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The Viruet brothers were not runners; rather, they were clever boxers. BTW, do you just make up BS when someone disagrees with your opinion to discredit theirs?

You may recall that in the 1st fight against Edwin, Duran eked out a close 96-94 decision [6 rounds to 4] and in the 2nd Edwin fight, Edwin cut Duran above his left eye with a right cross.

Interestingly enough, Duran was incapable of knocking down either Viruet in 35 total rounds of fighting.
As a matter of fact, Duran did not have either Viruet noticeably shook.
I attribute that to Duran's inability to penetrate the superior reach advantage each Viruet had--similarly, Mosely enjoys a 5" reach advantage over your ATG.

I have a question for you.

As you know, Panama Lewis was a trainer for Duran during most of his career at lightweight and for part of his WW career including the 1st fight against SRL in Montreal.

Do you think that Panama helped to enhance your so-called "Hands of Stone"'s reputation as a devastating puncher?
In that regard, Panama was in Duran's corner the night Duran savaged Davey Moore in MSG and Luis Resto brutalized poor Billy Collins. I attended those fights and I've always wondered whether Panama did something with the wraps and/or the gloves, because this was the last fight in which Duran kicked the snot out of someone.
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Old 06-14-2017, 04:57 PM #27
Ray Corso Ray Corso is offline
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"As you know, Panama Lewis was a trainer for Duran during most of his career at lightweight and for part of his WW career including the 1st fight against SRL in Montreal"..............................?


Trainers with Duran through that time duration were Freddie Brown & Ray Arcel.

Ray
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Old 06-14-2017, 06:30 PM #28
mikeg1224 mikeg1224 is offline
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OK, call him a handler or one of the entourage or a paid hanger-on.

That's not my point.

The facts are as I stated; namely, that Panama Lewis was in Duran's corner when he fought SRL [who stated that Duran's punches were like getting hit with a bag of rocks] as well as when he fought Davey Moore and recorded the last great TKO of his career.

Finally, I also think that Duran was a very special fighter; certainly in the top three (3) LWs of all time. However, I think Sugar Shane Mosely was better than he.
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Old 06-14-2017, 06:38 PM #29
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Robinson may be able to KO Duran but not Armstrong.
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Old 06-14-2017, 07:35 PM #30
The Old LefHook The Old LefHook is offline
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You don't mind if I call you an idiot, do you Mikeg?

You say Duran is top 3 all time, but then you say Mosley can beat him. That must make Mosley a top 2 all time lightweight. Go take an idiot pill.

I will correct you again: The Viruet brothers were pure runners. That does not mean they could not box. Still, they were pure runners, who could not knock out together as many opponents as most fighters manage to KO by themselves.

I don't make stuff up, I use my memory. I might have answered your Panama Lewis insinuations if you had not insulted me with the insinuation that I lie. Now I will not answer, but I will refrain from driving you from the forum in abject humiliation while you squall and block your backside, boy. Next time I will haul you to the woodshed for sure. Tread carefully around those who could trounce you on a bad day.
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