Helio Gracie Passes Away

[YUHHHHHHH!]

Rofl, if it's one thing that upsets me about most Brazilians, it's their uncanny ability to not shut the fuck up.

IMO even if that kickboxer was talking ****, they should have taught him a lesson and stayed quiet about it. God knows if he had some take down defense Ralek would have gotten KTFO.

[jakkups]

no way roger is more decorated than rickson.

do you know what the absolute (no weight class) division was called during rickson's era in brazil?

it was called the "rickson" division.

and what are you talking about rickson staying away after people started mastering bjj?

you do know that in brazil there were tons of good schools on bjj right?

rickson was grappling with the best brazilian jiu-jitsu fighters in brazil.

do you mean stop fighting in mma?

you do realize that rickson's last fight in mma was when he was 42 yrs. old right? he's 51 right now.

Yes I meant MMA. His BJJ resume is phenomenal no doubt but as far as grappling as a whole he hasn't been in there with the best out there. Whereas Roger ran through the best out there on a consistent basis with ADCC 2005 being the best performance of any grappler to date. Other than the Mundials Rickson never once participated in the ADCC championships meaning he never challenged himself against the best grapplers on a world level. Plus the level of grappling now is above and beyond what it was pre-ADCC, not just in Brazil but around the world.

As far as his MMA career was concerned he never fought anyone good other than Funaki who by then was pretty much done as a fighter. He ducked out of a challenge layed down to him by Bas Rutten and still says that Fedor has average fighting ability and that even today he is adamant that he could beat him. Hell he says he can beat most elite fighters right now. His age is irrelevant to him so it's irrelevant to me. He truly believes that he can do it yet he doesn't move an inch towards a comeback and would rather be disrespectful from the sidelines.

royce? you're talking about royce? you do realize that royce gracie is not a very good bjj technician right? royce was not very good. what royce did was show how a smaller fighter that knows bjj can beat a bigger fighter that doesn't. royce's bjj skills is not very high. anyone that knows bjj and grappling would tell you that just from watching his techniques which are sloppy.

I wasn't talking about his skills as a BJJ skills. Yes I know they're basic both in setups, positioning and execution. What I was talking about was his ability as a fighter and how he was a promoter of Gracie JiuJitsu as the one and only martial art you need to defeat an opponent in a fight yet when he came up against guys who trained in everything ala Saku or Hughes he was thoroughly embarrassed. All the early UFC's were just informercials for BJJ. It's easy to be able to beat someone with BJJ when they don't know anything about it. That's not the point. My pont is that the legend that was built around him was on the shoulders of guys who had no idea what submissions were or groundfighting. It's very easy to say how great the Gracies were back in the day because the facts speak for themselves. However the facts also show that the competition in MMA that they faced weren't anything like the average fighter today. And when Royce got beat, Renzo got beat, Ryan got beat and so on it gave way to the MMA fighter which is far superior than any fighter they had previously faced. I appreciate the fact that they introduced BJJ to the world and are responsible for a big part of what goes into being a great MMA fighter. But that's as far as it goes.

[jakkups]

Rofl, if it's one thing that upsets me about most Brazilians, it's their uncanny ability to not shut the fuck up.

IMO even if that kickboxer was talking ****, they should have taught him a lesson and stayed quiet about it. God knows if he had some take down defense Ralek would have gotten KTFO.

According to the description the Kickboxer had been disrespectful to Ralek's sister so Ralek challenged him to a fight.

[Left Hook Tua]

Yes I meant MMA. His BJJ resume is phenomenal no doubt but as far as grappling as a whole he hasn't been in there with the best out there. Whereas Roger ran through the best out there on a consistent basis with ADCC 2005 being the best performance of any grappler to date. Other than the Mundials Rickson never once participated in the ADCC championships meaning he never challenged himself against the best grapplers on a world level. Plus the level of grappling now is above and beyond what it was pre-ADCC, not just in Brazil but around the world.

As far as his MMA career was concerned he never fought anyone good other than Funaki who by then was pretty much done as a fighter. He ducked out of a challenge layed down to him by Bas Rutten and still says that Fedor has average fighting ability and that even today he is adamant that he could beat him. Hell he says he can beat most elite fighters right now. His age is irrelevant to him so it's irrelevant to me. He truly believes that he can do it yet he doesn't move an inch towards a comeback and would rather be disrespectful from the sidelines.

lol

haven't been in with the best grapplers in the world? adcc? rickson is only accomplished in bjj?

one of rickson's disputed losses is against ron tripp in a sambo match in 1993. do you know who ron tripp is? look it up. multiple time world judo and sambo champion. that's just an example of who he grappled with.

adcc? you do know adcc is only about 8 years old right? when adcc was started rickson was already 42 yrs. old.

bjj only huh? so all the judo and sambo matches and tournaments he entered was just bjj? you do know that rickson studied sambo right? you do know that rickson was tutored by one of the best judo masters in brazil right?

quit looking up sherdog when you think of rickson's mma fights. the ufc didn't start out 'til rickson was like 35 yrs. old. you think rickson started fighting at 36?

bas rutten? so when did bas rutten call him out? in the late 90's , early 2000's? when rickson was in his 40's? give me a break.

put it this way , bud. marco ruas , one of the best luta livre and vale tudo fighters in the world brag about a draw against rickson gracie. a DRAW. you won't find that on sherdog.

[Left Hook Tua]

I wasn't talking about his skills as a BJJ skills. Yes I know they're basic both in setups, positioning and execution. What I was talking about was his ability as a fighter and how he was a promoter of Gracie JiuJitsu as the one and only martial art you need to defeat an opponent in a fight yet when he came up against guys who trained in everything ala Saku or Hughes he was thoroughly embarrassed. All the early UFC's were just informercials for BJJ. It's easy to be able to beat someone with BJJ when they don't know anything about it. That's not the point. My pont is that the legend that was built around him was on the shoulders of guys who had no idea what submissions were or groundfighting. It's very easy to say how great the Gracies were back in the day because the facts speak for themselves. However the facts also show that the competition in MMA that they faced weren't anything like the average fighter today. And when Royce got beat, Renzo got beat, Ryan got beat and so on it gave way to the MMA fighter which is far superior than any fighter they had previously faced. I appreciate the fact that they introduced BJJ to the world and are responsible for a big part of what goes into being a great MMA fighter. But that's as far as it goes.

again more generic comments that sound like it came from bas rutten or something.

fact is fighters are more well rounded nowadays.

fighters get better.

the sport evolves.

it doesn't take away from the fact of what royce did.

the fact that royce is not one of the best bjj fighters in the world and still used bjj to dominate is impressive.

infomercial or not......royce fought some solid competition in the ufc. ken shamrock was a shootfighter not unfamiliar with submissions himself.

just because they didn't know bjj doesn't make royce's wins any less impressive.

bjj had been around for decades......it's basically kosen judo which has been around for a century.

it was still a fight and he still won it.

[YUHHHHHHH!]

lol

haven't been in with the best grapplers in the world? adcc? rickson is only accomplished in bjj?

one of rickson's disputed losses is against ron tripp in a sambo match in 1993. do you know who ron tripp is? look it up. multiple time world judo and sambo champion. that's just an example of who he grappled with.

adcc? you do know adcc is only about 8 years old right? when adcc was started rickson was already 42 yrs. old.

bjj only huh? so all the judo and sambo matches and tournaments he entered was just bjj? you do know that rickson studied sambo right? you do know that rickson was tutored by one of the best judo masters in brazil right?

quit looking up sherdog when you think of rickson's mma fights. the ufc didn't start out 'til rickson was like 35 yrs. old. you think rickson started fighting at 36?

bas rutten? so when did bas rutten call him out? in the late 90's , early 2000's? when rickson was in his 40's? give me a break.

put it this way , bud. marco ruas , one of the best luta livre and vale tudo fighters in the world brag about a draw against rickson gracie. a DRAW. you won't find that on sherdog.

I think what Jakkups is saying is that he would like Rickson to keep his mouth closed in old age. Rickson has said that he is 100% sure that he could defeat Fedor. Now let's be honest, all of his age and cockiness aside, a REAL fighter would never say he is 100%. Especially while just chilling, rested, not in training. Confidence is a virtue for only so long.

I think that you've got a small problem with confusing BJJ with fighting. It's only a branch of this sport. It's a misconception, and it's not made by you solely. Even Marco Ruas and Mark Schultz have made this mistake. Both of them have called Rickson the best fighter they've ever seen, only after grappling with him.

If Rickson decided to make a come back, either now or 10 years ago, he would have been trampled. Think of what Matt Hughes did to Royce Gracie. Think of what Sakuraba has done to the rest of the Gracies. It would simply be a massacre to put Rickson against a well rounded fighter.

[Left Hook Tua]

I think what Jakkups is saying is that he would like Rickson to keep his mouth closed in old age. Rickson has said that he is 100% sure that he could defeat Fedor. Now let's be honest, all of his age and cockiness aside, a REAL fighter would never say he is 100%. Especially while just chilling, rested, not in training. Confidence is a virtue for only so long.

I think that you've got a small problem with confusing BJJ with fighting. It's only a branch of this sport. It's a misconception, and it's not made by you solely. Even Marco Ruas and Mark Schultz have made this mistake. Both of them have called Rickson the best fighter they've ever seen, only after grappling with him.

If Rickson decided to make a come back, either now or 10 years ago, he would have been trampled. Think of what Matt Hughes did to Royce Gracie. Think of what Sakuraba has done to the rest of the Gracies. It would simply be a massacre to put Rickson against a well rounded fighter.

rickson gracie can talk all he wants.

it's a free country.

if he wants to say he can beat fedor then so be it. even if fedor kicks his ass doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to say what he wants.

misconception?

i think you have the misconception that just because it wasn't as multi-dimensional as it is now that it WASN'T fighting. listen i know people are more well rounded now. you got guys who are muay thai fighters with bjj black belts and such but that doesn't mean the guy in the old days were **** or that the fights in the old days weren't fights.

mark schultz grappled with rickson and he didn't say rickson was the best fighter he said he was one of the best grapplers. rickson said the same thing about mark.

as far as ruas goes. marco and rickson didn't grapple. they fought. ruas was a vale tudo fighter representing luta livre. luta livre fighters and bjj guys don't grapple. they fight.

don't compare royce with rickson. i love royce but he's not of the caliber of rickson or even royler , renzo , etc.

royce was not a very good bjj practitioner or fighter. looking at his fights and technique anyone can see that.

[YUHHHHHHH!]

rickson gracie can talk all he wants.

it's a free country.

if he wants to say he can beat fedor then so be it. even if fedor kicks his ass doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to say what he wants.

misconception?

i think you have the misconception that just because it wasn't as multi-dimensional as it is now that it WASN'T fighting. listen i know people are more well rounded now. you got guys who are muay thai fighters with bjj black belts and such but that doesn't mean the guy in the old days were **** or that the fights in the old days weren't fights.

mark schultz grappled with rickson and he didn't say rickson was the best fighter he said he was one of the best grapplers. rickson said the same thing about mark.

as far as ruas goes. marco and rickson didn't grapple. they fought. ruas was a vale tudo fighter representing luta livre. luta livre fighters and bjj guys don't grapple. they fight.

don't compare royce with rickson. i love royce but he's not of the caliber of rickson or even royler , renzo , etc.

royce was not a very good bjj practitioner or fighter. looking at his fights and technique anyone can see that.

I wasn't really comparing Royce with Rickson. I was comparing the caliber of Gracie Jiu Jitsu used in a fight. Where I think you will find that some of the other Gracies may have applied it slightly better to an MMA fight than that of Rickson, who used his Jiu Jitsu solely against grapplers (Who he knew he could beat) and other fighters without without takedown defense. No margin in between, he fought all one dimensional fighters. We're talking mostly no-name Japanese "fighters" and people like Rei Zulu. Come on now.

FYI, Schultz did call him a fighter.

“Rickson Gracie and me had a match in the BYU wrestling room in 1992. He made me tap out twice and told me I was the toughest guy he’d gone against. Rickson was the best fighter I’d ever seen. He still may be.”
- Mark Schultz

Also, you can't really call Rickson Multi-dimensional because he fought a Sambo fighter. I believe his fight with Ron Tripp lasted only 47 seconds, ending with Tripp being victorious via Uchimata. And did you know after the "Controversial loss," Tripp gave a speech basically telling Rickson to stop crying and take his losses in stride?

"As a gentleman and a champion I will not criticize Mr. Gracies response but will simply say that I accepted my losses in my career as a learning experience to urge me and move me to become a more complete competitor."
- Ron Tripp

The Gracies have done great for this sport. Their strategies will be implemented for years to come in this sport, but I see them now as the armies of the past. Kind of like Romans, you know? Their strategies work, but we have taken what we needed from them and discarded the rest. People adapt to you if you stick with only one form, so you have to change constantly.

I'll leave you and this thread with the words of Bruce Lee.

"The techniques, though they play an important role in the early stage, should not be too restrictive, complex or mechanical. If we cling to them, we will become bound by their limitation."

[Left Hook Tua]

I wasn't really comparing Royce with Rickson. I was comparing the caliber of Gracie Jiu Jitsu used in a fight. Where I think you will find that some of the other Gracies may have applied it slightly better to an MMA fight than that of Rickson, who used his Jiu Jitsu solely against grapplers (Who he knew he could beat) and other fighters without without takedown defense. No margin in between, he fought all one dimensional fighters. We're talking mostly no-name Japanese "fighters" and people like Rei Zulu. Come on now.

FYI, Schultz did call him a fighter.

“Rickson Gracie and me had a match in the BYU wrestling room in 1992. He made me tap out twice and told me I was the toughest guy he’d gone against. Rickson was the best fighter I’d ever seen. He still may be.”
- Mark Schultz

Also, you can't really call Rickson Multi-dimensional because he fought a Sambo fighter. I believe his fight with Ron Tripp lasted only 47 seconds, ending with Tripp being victorious via Uchimata. And did you know after the "Controversial loss," Tripp gave a speech basically telling Rickson to stop crying and take his losses in stride?

"As a gentleman and a champion I will not criticize Mr. Gracies response but will simply say that I accepted my losses in my career as a learning experience to urge me and move me to become a more complete competitor."
- Ron Tripp

The Gracies have done great for this sport. Their strategies will be implemented for years to come in this sport, but I see them now as the armies of the past. Kind of like Romans, you know? Their strategies work, but we have taken what we needed from them and discarded the rest. People adapt to you if you stick with only one form, so you have to change constantly.

I'll leave you and this thread with the words of Bruce Lee.

"The techniques, though they play an important role in the early stage, should not be too restrictive, complex or mechanical. If we cling to them, we will become bound by their limitation."

again you're taking about rickson's "official" bouts in vale tudo japan , pride , c2k , etc.

does that mean fighting didn't exist pre-ufc in 1993?

remember he's gone all over the world fighting and grappling with guys. just because people didn't see it on spike tv or ppv doesn't mean it didn't happen.

remember in brazil fights between rival bjj teams/schools happened a lot.

luta livre in brazil was developed by brazilian boxers , kickboxers , wrestlers , karatekas , etc. training together to help beat bjj because they were losing fights to bjj fighters.

you can criticize rickson's official mma record all you want but guys who have fought , trained , sparred , grappled with rickson say he's one of the best grapplers and/or fighters ever.

as far as ron tripp goes i know part of the story. tripp and his supporters state that he beat rickson while rickson and his supporters contend it was a technicality and misunderstanding of the rules. i don't know the truth though i wasn't there.

[MindBat]

Wow. Helio raised some of the best fighters on the planet. His own sons.

Fought some of the toughest and bigger mofo's of Brazil and the world in long, grueling, dragged out fights and came up victorious.



He gave hope to those who thought old age was only about retirement and withering away into obscurity. He lived how many his age could never hope to live. His legend will live on in infamy.

Rest In Peace, Helio

Thank you for sharing your talent with the world.



Condolences to the Gracie family.