Are we all deluded about Sugar Ray Robinson?

[kendom]

I was having this argument with a guy on youtube some time ago over a fantasy match-up between Ray Robinson and Sugar Ray Leonard. He claimed that Robinson had " no defense, a poor jab, throws terrible punches that are too wide, and leaves himself off-balance." He claimed that Leonard would be able to easily beat Robinson, because of his superior hand speed and better "form" even once claimng that Robinson defense consisted of "blocking punches with his head"
When I made my rebuttal and asking what he meant by "form" he said

" By form, I'm referring to Leonard's textbook punches, instead of the wide, off-balance, amateurish shots Robinson takes. Robinson could never hit Leonard with those shots, and would get killed with counter punches".

oh btw he also claimed that Lamotta was a lousy fighter and would be easily beaten by Leonard and get "killed in the 70's"

So are we all deluded? cause the Robinson he was talking about didn't seem to be the same Robinson I know. I thought he was overblowing Robinsons faults and exaggerating Leonards skills, but it did get me thinking.

Any thoughts?

[Barn]

The guy is obviously a bit of a moron.

I was surprised by just how skilful LaMotta looks on film.

[Barn]

As soon as I pressed reply it came to me he's obviously only ever watched a HL of Robinson.

[kendom]

The guy is obviously a bit of a moron.

I was surprised by just how skilful LaMotta looks on film.

Yh I thought so too, I was appalled at his bias, you can see the argument if you want this the link to the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql2jscsVcjE
Go back some pages Im kenomy66 and the guys name is TA15 something

[Barn]

The guy is a bit of an idiot.

I disagreed with a lot of things he said, too many to list. I disagreed with you a little on a few points as well though.

The first being Robinson's jab was only 7/10. I think Sugar's jab is 8.5/10 or something along them lines, probably more. It's a thing of beauty the speed and accuracy which he shoots it out. Constantly moving and firing that jab early in the fight. Keeping the opponent at bay.

The second being that Leonard didn't have power to keep Basilio off him. I find Leonard's punching does get under-rated and he was definitely a big banger. I think Leonard's shots to have the sting to discourage Basilio to just under the same extent Robinson's did.

Good debating though!

[Vadrigar.]

" By form, I'm referring to Leonard's textbook punches, instead of the wide, off-balance, amateurish shots Robinson takes. Robinson could never hit Leonard with those shots, and would get killed with counter punches".

It's called combination punching. When Robinson wants to box he will box. Remember Hearns was out boxing Leonard before he got tired and Robinson's stamina wasn't a problem.

Maybe Robinson has to open up to keep the big middleweights off him. he wouldn't need to do that with Leonard.

[kendom]

It's called combination punching. When Robinson wants to box he will box. Remember Hearns was out boxing Leonard before he got tired and Robinson's stamina wasn't a problem.

Maybe Robinson has to open up to keep the big middleweights off him. he wouldn't need to do that with Leonard.

Yh I know I was just quoting the guy I was debating with

[kendom]

The guy is a bit of an idiot.

I disagreed with a lot of things he said, too many to list. I disagreed with you a little on a few points as well though.

The first being Robinson's jab was only 7/10. I think Sugar's jab is 8.5/10 or something along them lines, probably more. It's a thing of beauty the speed and accuracy which he shoots it out. Constantly moving and firing that jab early in the fight. Keeping the opponent at bay.
The second being that Leonard didn't have power to keep Basilio off him. I find Leonard's punching does get under-rated and he was definitely a big banger. I think Leonard's shots to have the sting to discourage Basilio to just under the same extent Robinson's did.

Good debating though!

I dont think that Robinsons jab was that big a part of his arsenal, although it was a very good jab, I think it was more of a range finder jab than one he used to control a fight

And yeah about Basilio, well this point applied more to Lamotta to be honest, I dont think Leonards shots would have kept away as much as Robinsons. Since there's no footage of the 1st five fights where Lamotta was much faster its hard to imagine how Robinson was able to constantly beat him, but I think power would have come into the equation.

[Miburo]

Robinson would only really get off balance when he was committing to the tail end of a combination, such as when he'd double and triple up the left hook on a retreating opponent.

[AntonTheMeh]

lol. dude makes it seem as if that's how ray would start his attack. and for the record, dude needs to go check out ray in his prime. there are quite a few little clips of him. the man would have been owning WW and MW for the past decade that's how ahead of his time he was.

all i need is Leonard hearns I as a reference. what happened when hearns boxed? he outboxed Leonard. it was only when Leonard made it a dogfight that he started winning. ray would have outboxed him, and outlasted him in a brawl. that's not to take anything away from Leonard , as i think he's the second greatest ww. i just think SRR would have beaten the breaks off of him.