The geneology of "a cross" in boxing...more confusing than appears!

[billeau2]

Ok since someone brought up "a cross" I got to thinking, then I got to looking and here is what I have seen on some other discussions:

There is a debate about whether a cross has to cross anything to be a cross. There is some speculation that the punch loops slightly as opposed to a straight, and there is the idea that the punch crosses the opponent arm.

There is also a minority view that states a cross has to do with throwing the punch across your body because the other leg is forwards. I like this view because from a general perspective, when there are boxing styles where the lead hand is the power hand, one must differentiate a lead from a punch that comes from the back arm.

Where does the term originate? what did it mean, and if it changed when did it change, and if not, why is there debate? We all know what a lead is, and we know what a hook is, and what a shovel punch became (an uppercut) but what is the story with the cross?

[OctoberRed]

You are correct. I searched all over the place and can't find any explanation of where the term originated.

[GrandpaBernard]

I trained at two boxing gyms in my life. Not once was anyone instructed to throw a cross.

It was right hand [left for the southpaws] and overhand.

[Ray Corso]

Cross angle punch.

If you throw a right hand that starts at your opponents left shoulder and you punch to the jaw or tip of the chin that's punching "across the chest" area. An original set up would be to step out (to the right) while in fighting to get that angle set up.
Also known as catching your opponent in his "profile".

Ray

[kafkod]

Ok since someone brought up "a cross" I got to thinking, then I got to looking and here is what I have seen on some other discussions:

There is a debate about whether a cross has to cross anything to be a cross. There is some speculation that the punch loops slightly as opposed to a straight, and there is the idea that the punch crosses the opponent arm.

There is also a minority view that states a cross has to do with throwing the punch across your body because the other leg is forwards. I like this view because from a general perspective, when there are boxing styles where the lead hand is the power hand, one must differentiate a lead from a punch that comes from the back arm.

Where does the term originate? what did it mean, and if it changed when did it change, and if not, why is there debate? We all know what a lead is, and we know what a hook is, and what a shovel punch became (an uppercut) but what is the story with the cross?

When I was learning to box I was taught how to throw a straight right hand - I'm orothodox - over the left jab of an orthodox opponent as a counter punch. My trainer called that punch a "right cross" because it was aimed across the left arm of the opponent.

[kafkod]

Cross angle punch.

If you throw a right hand that starts at your opponents left shoulder and you punch to the jaw or tip of the chin that's punching "across the chest" area. An original set up would be to step out (to the right) while in fighting to get that angle set up.
Also known as catching your opponent in his "profile".

Ray

Seems like what you describe there could be either a straight right or a right hook?

I was taught the right cross as a straight punch, thrown from longer range than a right hook.

Edit: I'm English doe. Long range, straight punches was the way to go when I was a lad .. stiff, upright Brit style!

[billeau2]

You are correct. I searched all over the place and can't find any explanation of where the term originated.

And October you started this mess in the other thread! that a good thing

You and a few others were opining that the term was related to crossing the arm of the opponent, which obviously does make sense and is actually how most people seem to think the term should be used. The problem is when you go outside of the new orthodoxy there seems to be one of those places where things may have changed a bit because of different distances involved and I can't seem to find that place lol!

[billeau2]

Cross angle punch.

If you throw a right hand that starts at your opponents left shoulder and you punch to the jaw or tip of the chin that's punching "across the chest" area. An original set up would be to step out (to the right) while in fighting to get that angle set up.
Also known as catching your opponent in his "profile".

Ray

Ray you are using the term more like I am familiar with it "across the chest" or "across the body" which is the way I have heard it used.

Again one big advantage to this terminology is that the cross can apply to different styles, for example in Chinese boxing the theory suggests that the front hand lead is the power hand. If you are a righty you want that hand closest to the opponent.

Heres an interesting aside: as easly as the late 18 hundreds good boxing coaches were lamenting how the power hand was held behind and seldom used. The solution being related to something you said above Ray, namely "squaring up' to the opponent and using the power hand as a lead from shoulders equadistant to the opponent.

In Hsing Yi for example reach is emphasized and in Wing Chun both hands are forward. In both of these cases the person is interpreting the "power hand" as the hand they want to have in play.

In my own personal opinion I have always felt that punching across the body was hard when fighting, including in karate where using the reverse punch was never my cup of tea.

[billeau2]

When I was learning to box I was taught how to throw a straight right hand - I'm orothodox - over the left jab of an orthodox opponent as a counter punch. My trainer called that punch a "right cross" because it was aimed across the left arm of the opponent.

Yes this is not only common usage for the term, in addition to others, but its been that way before boxing changed to a more modern emphasis on punching theory. I say this because british coaches were teachng this method to the point where one such coach who was impressed by the Yanks, circa 1890's or so, felt that this usage prevented the fighter from bringing the power hand into play and suggested leading with the right, or... a right hand lead which Some Yanks were apparently doing at the time with some success.

[OctoberRed]

And October you started this mess in the other thread! that a good thing

You and a few others were opining that the term was related to crossing the arm of the opponent, which obviously does make sense and is actually how most people seem to think the term should be used. The problem is when you go outside of the new orthodoxy there seems to be one of those places where things may have changed a bit because of different distances involved and I can't seem to find that place lol!

That seems to be the problem, finding where it was written.