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Old 08-09-2018, 09:50 AM #321
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Originally Posted by BattlingNelson View Post
I'd say that the dutch settlers arrived and farmed the land long before anyone had invented a word called apartheid.
But that's irrelevant to the other side.

It's all about race to them.

The whites are wrong and the blacks are right. Period. End of story.
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Old 08-09-2018, 09:55 AM #322
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Originally Posted by TonyGe View Post
I wasn't aware of some of these points you brought up. I'm going to do some research.
Battling Nelson has put up some solid points in the thread as well. Again, this is a very complex issue that illicit strong feelings.

I don't disagree with you from an individual perspective-the majority of the current farmers did not actively participate in the genocide of black people under apartheid.

From a larger perspective think about all the chaos a family goes through after their land and property is stolen and the male figure imprisoned or murdered? The affect that had on 3 generations of families.

I can't just pretend that didn't happen.

IMO that is a TERRIBLE wrong that has to be rectified no matter what the cost.
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:03 AM #323
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(...)

This was land stolen during apartheid, not 300 years ago. (...)

The bottom line for me is the land must be returned. (...)
Now, man:

Afrikaners and Dutch in South Africa:
... Dutch settlement, under the United East India Company, began in the Cape of Good Hope (present-day Cape Town) in 1652, making it the oldest Western-based culture in Africa. (...) Some of these early Afrikaners (...) set about clearing and cultivating the almost uninhabited country. (...) they permanently settled an area of 170,000 square kilometers; about six times the area of the Netherlands. As the Cape colony expanded, Dutch farmers (Boers) pushed outward, carving more homesteads from the vast wilderness.[12] By the late 19th century, some had even crossed the Limpopo river into Mashonaland, now part of Zimbabwe. etc...
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:09 AM #324
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I saw your posts before. That is in part why I posted the LA Times article yesterday that gives more insight to the deal Mandela made as part of his presidency for the land. Returning the land has always been a primary issue for the ANC.

This didn't just all the sudden happen.
Can you be so kind and repost the article so I save myself from reading through the trolling and agenda-driven drek that I'm sure this thread is littered with?
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:13 AM #325
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Can you be so kind and repost the article so I save myself from reading through the trolling and agenda-driven drek that I'm sure this thread is littered with?
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:20 AM #326
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:39 AM #327
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Nelson Mandela's selfless brand of leadership surprised the world and won him universal accolades during his lifetime. After being confined to Robben Island for most of his 27 years in prison, Mandela became South Africa's first black president, and his goal was always reconciliation rather than revenge. But now that we have had a year to mourn his death, it's important to also begin to critically evaluate his legacy, including his role in cementing the land-based inequalities created under colonialism and apartheid.

Starting in the 18th century, colonial and apartheid governments systematically stole property from black South Africans and gave it to whites at nominal cost. As a result, when Mandela took office in 1994, whites owned about 87% of the land, although they constituted less than 10% of the population.

In a political bargain with the outgoing apartheid regime, Mandela and his party, the African National Congress, allowed whites to keep their property. This meant that even if, for instance, the apartheid government had forcibly removed a village of black people in order to sell their land to a white farmer at far less than its value, the farmer would retain clear title to that land post-apartheid. If the new government later decided to take the land and return it to its former owners, then the state would have to pay the white farmer just compensation.

In exchange for this sizable concession, blacks were promised land reform, which is outlined in South Africa's post-apartheid Constitution. Millions of blacks who were robbed of ownership or tenancy rights after 1913 could file claims for compensation; those who never owned land could gain land through the redistribution program; and through tenure upgrading, blacks who were allowed to be tenants only under white rule became owners. The ANC's land reform goal was to redistribute 30% of the land in the first five years of the new democracy.

But if the promises sounded equitable in theory, in practice they have been far from fair. Only one side of the bargain has been upheld: South African whites kept their property, but blacks still have not received theirs. This year marks 20 years of democracy in South Africa, and only 10% of the land has changed hands from whites back to blacks. Political apartheid may have ended, but economic apartheid lives on.

For a recent book, I interviewed 150 South Africans whose land was seized during colonialism and apartheid and who received either money or land through the land restitution program. Their stories illuminate the ongoing injustice.

When the post-apartheid state expropriates land for redistributive purposes from current owners (who are mostly white), they receive market-based compensation. But when former owners whose land was grabbed under apartheid file successful claims for that land, most are granted modest symbolic awards called "Standard Settlement Offers." These offers have ranged from about $2,000 to about $6,000, a mere fraction of the land's value today.

Equity demands that black and white owners should either both receive symbolic compensation or both receive market-related compensation. Whites should not continue to get higher rates of compensation than blacks

Some argue that these inequalities exist because the ANC is corrupt. Although corruption is undoubtedly a problem, the bigger problem in this case is the injustice of the initial political bargain. White South Africans benefited immediately from the new policies, with assurances that they had the right to keep their land or receive just compensation. Blacks, on the other hand, had to wait for institutions to be created and claims to be evaluated. And the programs established to benefit them were underfunded, because they had to compete with other urgent funding priorities such as the AIDS pandemic, a broken education system and spiraling crime rates.

Land reform is failing and land inequalities persist, in large part because of structural flaws in the political bargain that Mandela struck. The upside of the bargain was that it ensured South Africa transitioned from apartheid to democracy without massive bloodshed or economic disintegration. Mandela may well have chosen the best option available to him. But was the system fair? Hardly.

As we pay homage to Mandela on the first anniversary of his death, he should not be deified. He was a man forced to make hard choices, and he left a legacy of both reconciliation and inequality.
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Old 08-09-2018, 01:45 PM #328
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Most of South Africa was an uninhabited wilderness till the European settlers came.

White people are being driving out of South Africa. The were once 5 million white people in South Africa in the 1970s, but that number has bee steadily declining

Shameful what the Racist ANC is doing, and it will destroy the country.
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Old 08-09-2018, 03:50 PM #329
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Originally Posted by The Big Dunn View Post
Nelson Mandela's selfless brand of leadership surprised the world and won him universal accolades during his lifetime. After being confined to Robben Island for most of his 27 years in prison, Mandela became South Africa's first black president, and his goal was always reconciliation rather than revenge. But now that we have had a year to mourn his death, it's important to also begin to critically evaluate his legacy, including his role in cementing the land-based inequalities created under colonialism and apartheid.

Starting in the 18th century, colonial and apartheid governments systematically stole property from black South Africans and gave it to whites at nominal cost. As a result, when Mandela took office in 1994, whites owned about 87% of the land, although they constituted less than 10% of the population.

In a political bargain with the outgoing apartheid regime, Mandela and his party, the African National Congress, allowed whites to keep their property. This meant that even if, for instance, the apartheid government had forcibly removed a village of black people in order to sell their land to a white farmer at far less than its value, the farmer would retain clear title to that land post-apartheid. If the new government later decided to take the land and return it to its former owners, then the state would have to pay the white farmer just compensation.

In exchange for this sizable concession, blacks were promised land reform, which is outlined in South Africa's post-apartheid Constitution. Millions of blacks who were robbed of ownership or tenancy rights after 1913 could file claims for compensation; those who never owned land could gain land through the redistribution program; and through tenure upgrading, blacks who were allowed to be tenants only under white rule became owners. The ANC's land reform goal was to redistribute 30% of the land in the first five years of the new democracy.

But if the promises sounded equitable in theory, in practice they have been far from fair. Only one side of the bargain has been upheld: South African whites kept their property, but blacks still have not received theirs. This year marks 20 years of democracy in South Africa, and only 10% of the land has changed hands from whites back to blacks. Political apartheid may have ended, but economic apartheid lives on.

For a recent book, I interviewed 150 South Africans whose land was seized during colonialism and apartheid and who received either money or land through the land restitution program. Their stories illuminate the ongoing injustice.

When the post-apartheid state expropriates land for redistributive purposes from current owners (who are mostly white), they receive market-based compensation. But when former owners whose land was grabbed under apartheid file successful claims for that land, most are granted modest symbolic awards called "Standard Settlement Offers." These offers have ranged from about $2,000 to about $6,000, a mere fraction of the land's value today.

Equity demands that black and white owners should either both receive symbolic compensation or both receive market-related compensation. Whites should not continue to get higher rates of compensation than blacks

Some argue that these inequalities exist because the ANC is corrupt. Although corruption is undoubtedly a problem, the bigger problem in this case is the injustice of the initial political bargain. White South Africans benefited immediately from the new policies, with assurances that they had the right to keep their land or receive just compensation. Blacks, on the other hand, had to wait for institutions to be created and claims to be evaluated. And the programs established to benefit them were underfunded, because they had to compete with other urgent funding priorities such as the AIDS pandemic, a broken education system and spiraling crime rates.

Land reform is failing and land inequalities persist, in large part because of structural flaws in the political bargain that Mandela struck. The upside of the bargain was that it ensured South Africa transitioned from apartheid to democracy without massive bloodshed or economic disintegration. Mandela may well have chosen the best option available to him. But was the system fair? Hardly.

As we pay homage to Mandela on the first anniversary of his death, he should not be deified. He was a man forced to make hard choices, and he left a legacy of both reconciliation and inequality.
Thanks mate.

To me Mandela is one of the very few heroes of my time.

The article puts some facts in that I wasn’t aware of ie the land grabbing during the apartheid regime. It’s also clear that a deal was made and that this deal has failed mainly due to corruption within the ANC. I knew that the corruption was out of this world in RSA and that’s a travesty.

I know a (white) South African. He has left the country for Dubai. He says the country is doomed. So sad.

By the look of things now, the agenda is revenge rather than conciliation. Mandela (may he rip), is turning in his grave.
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Old 08-09-2018, 03:59 PM #330
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Originally Posted by BattlingNelson View Post
Thanks mate.

To me Mandela is one of the very few heroes of my time.

The article puts some facts in that I wasn’t aware of ie the land grabbing during the apartheid regime. It’s also clear that a deal was made and that this deal has failed mainly due to corruption within the ANC. I knew that the corruption was out of this world in RSA and that’s a travesty.

I know a (white) South African. He has left the country for Dubai. He says the country is doomed. So sad.

By the look of things now, the agenda is revenge rather than conciliation. Mandela (may he rip), is turning in his grave.
I think the country has been doomed for some time. You can't just say we are "ending apartheid" and that be enough. The effects are far reaching.

I think Mandela was smart enough to know that the land being stolen was always going to be "straw that broke the camel's back". That is why he tried to broker a deal. What he deserves ultimate respect and credit for is his willingness to even try and find a solution.

You don't think he got blowback from black people on this?

Just a sad situation all around. There ultimately are no winners here.
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