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Old 11-08-2017, 07:14 AM #171
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Originally Posted by billeau2 View Post
With the exception of Louis, who Marciano did not want to fight, these guys, while not prime, were still very capable. You have to have something in the career bank to be able to fight Marciano twice as Walcot and Charles did! These two guys were still fighting at the twilight, but top of their careers, transitioning to heavyweight (a Charles did) to try to take the prize from a percieved big lug.

Also, for a fighter like Moore, lets look at it from his perspective: he just defeated Harold Johnson to win the light heavweight title, this is after Maxim (neither guy a slouch) so he was more than able, probably was looking forward to facing a "weak" heavyweight given his mobility... Point being that Archie was not only not a wash, but was in a good match up... Even a small heavyweight conventionally meant less legs needed, as compared to a lighter more mobile opponent, and skills would carry him for the rounds... or so he thought.

I would agree that if Moore or Charles had to fight lighter where speed and legs become more of a factor, this might have made them more vulnerable at this time in their careers, but both men showed they had the power and resistance to carry up and were still live dogs. Ditto for Moore who had just beaten a couple of excellent fighters convincingly. The proof is that I believe at least one of these three was favored against Rocky.
i get sick of people talking about may and his post prime opponents while rockys entire resume gets a pass.

theres a reason why guys back then were able to fight once a month, there were so many questionable ''boxers'' then.

seriously, if may were a pleasant, humble guy, hed be considered the GOAT.
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Old 11-08-2017, 11:34 AM #172
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No he wouldn't. Not by people in the know, but by young fanboys that only know boxing from 1996 on, like he's already considered to be by them.
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Old 11-08-2017, 12:28 PM #173
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If Floyd hadn't initially retired at 39-0, could the fights with Mosley, Pacquiao and Cotto happened sooner? Or maybe at least Mosley and Cotto?
Mosley yes, Cotto and Pacquiao no. Shane was with Golden Boy so that fight could’ve been made but there wouldn’t have been much interest since Shane had just lost to Cotto. Bare in mind Bob wouldn’t even consider May-Pac until Manny was KO’d and his stock started going down. Floyd also asked Bob to fight Cotto in 2005 and 2006 and both Bob and Evangelista Cotto said no because they didn’t think he was ready. Can’t blame Mayweather for Mosley not happening earlier either. Floyd called him out in 1999 and 2006 and Shane showed no interest. It was only once he got near the end of his career and Floyd became the sports biggest cash cow that Shane suddenly decided he wanted the fight. This is why Mayweather clowned and insulted him so badly in the 24/7 episodes, because SSM was being a total hypocrite.
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Old 11-08-2017, 01:08 PM #174
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not saying mays resume is perfect....just compared to rockys. how many of these threads are around in this place ?!?!? and id bet most if not all would claim rockys was better.

its a shame some fights didnt happen in their primes. but whats done is done.

a ww/jmw version of rocky would look like pretty feeble. would not have an 0 for long.
There are good arguments for both men, imo its apples to oranges. Just different considerations. For example, if we look at the comparison of skill between each man and his opponents Marciano becomes quite remarkable. I have to look up who was favored in his bouts with Charles, Walcott and Moore... but his comparative level of skill was nil!
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Goldman really found a way with Rocky for him to be able to find a way to fight these guys and not get blown out by their technical advantages.

But thats a hard quality to compare isn't it? We certainly cannot say of Mayweather, that this quality of Marciano's diminishes his own performance. Ive seen Mayweather smile while ducking a volley at 135 and timing a counter perfectly...it was caught on slo mo...again, fantastic quality for a lightweight to have that control and poise, but is it comprable? Maybe to Ali but not to Marciano.

With that said both men were skilled, Mayweather obviously had more conventional and comprable skill sets. But marciano had his ways, he was better defensively than people think, knew how to avoid a punch, and had good timing and feinting ability.

If pressed I just don't think we can compare these guys
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Old 11-08-2017, 01:15 PM #175
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i get sick of people talking about may and his post prime opponents while rockys entire resume gets a pass.

theres a reason why guys back then were able to fight once a month, there were so many questionable ''boxers'' then.

seriously, if may were a pleasant, humble guy, hed be considered the GOAT.
Actually Robinson used to get called arrogant at times in his career. Jack Johnson, forget about it. Mayweather will not be considered such a heel when history comes into play. Some people believe he was that good, its not a ridiculous point of view.

There were a lot of good trainers and the skills of a fighter were somewhat common place. Men generally had somewhat of an education in the basics more so than these days. Mostly because there were gyms all over the place. It might be that other advances trump that education... You just don't see fighters doing as many things as they used to do skill wise. They fight very similar to amateurs more so than a man who would be expected to know how to fight at all ranges, feint, know all the punches, etc. the footwork especially.
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Old 11-08-2017, 10:22 PM #176
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That's probably because they also spend a lot more time competing at the amateur level too. Sometimes I watch a fight on HBO and they talk about some guy having 200 or more amateur fights before turning pro. Or was that also common in the past?
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Old 11-08-2017, 10:25 PM #177
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Mosley yes, Cotto and Pacquiao no. Shane was with Golden Boy so that fight could’ve been made but there wouldn’t have been much interest since Shane had just lost to Cotto. Bare in mind Bob wouldn’t even consider May-Pac until Manny was KO’d and his stock started going down. Floyd also asked Bob to fight Cotto in 2005 and 2006 and both Bob and Evangelista Cotto said no because they didn’t think he was ready. Can’t blame Mayweather for Mosley not happening earlier either. Floyd called him out in 1999 and 2006 and Shane showed no interest. It was only once he got near the end of his career and Floyd became the sports biggest cash cow that Shane suddenly decided he wanted the fight. This is why Mayweather clowned and insulted him so badly in the 24/7 episodes, because SSM was being a total hypocrite.
Yeah, I thought I read about those guys delaying fights with Mayweather before too, thanks for the confirmation. While there will be some criticism of Floyd's resume, nobody will doubt his skill, achievements and some good wins he had. And I loved it when Floyd joked about Shane still having a Jheri curl, saying he got in that Hot Tub Time Machine haha. I almost thought he was gonna do a Soul Glo reference.
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Old 11-09-2017, 12:18 AM #178
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Originally Posted by billeau2 View Post
There are good arguments for both men, imo its apples to oranges. Just different considerations. For example, if we look at the comparison of skill between each man and his opponents Marciano becomes quite remarkable. I have to look up who was favored in his bouts with Charles, Walcott and Moore... but his comparative level of skill was nil!
Image View Removed. Please Click Here.
Goldman really found a way with Rocky for him to be able to find a way to fight these guys and not get blown out by their technical advantages.

But thats a hard quality to compare isn't it? We certainly cannot say of Mayweather, that this quality of Marciano's diminishes his own performance. Ive seen Mayweather smile while ducking a volley at 135 and timing a counter perfectly...it was caught on slo mo...again, fantastic quality for a lightweight to have that control and poise, but is it comprable? Maybe to Ali but not to Marciano.

With that said both men were skilled, Mayweather obviously had more conventional and comprable skill sets. But marciano had his ways, he was better defensively than people think, knew how to avoid a punch, and had good timing and feinting ability.

If pressed I just don't think we can compare these guys
sry, but imho, there is no comparison. isnt apples to oranges. hws are incapable of seeking competition elsewhere. if their div is weak, oh well. feasting time. and boxing fans just love the hw.

add in the fact that boxing fans also love guys from that era and rocky had no choice but to be a fan fave.

yeah, rocky did what he did with just a punch and a weak string of opponents. the stars lined up perfectly for him and he gtfo at the right time too. 7 defenses ?!?!?!?

as for may, he of the no power (at ww) AND bad hands ?!?!?! we can trade quotes all day but no way in this realm of reality does rockys resume belong in the same conversation as mays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billeau2 View Post
Actually Robinson used to get called arrogant at times in his career. Jack Johnson, forget about it. Mayweather will not be considered such a heel when history comes into play. Some people believe he was that good, its not a ridiculous point of view.

There were a lot of good trainers and the skills of a fighter were somewhat common place. Men generally had somewhat of an education in the basics more so than these days. Mostly because there were gyms all over the place. It might be that other advances trump that education... You just don't see fighters doing as many things as they used to do skill wise. They fight very similar to amateurs more so than a man who would be expected to know how to fight at all ranges, feint, know all the punches, etc. the footwork especially.
''at times''....may was born arrogant ! im not talking about the experts opinions of may. the everyday so called fight fan. people hate him because hes arrogant and ''boring''. to say otherwise means you cant be honest.

the reason why there were so many ''boxers'' fighting once a month was due to the influx of a common man needing to pay off his bar tab. record keeping was a joke, aliases were commonplace and forget about the mobs influence.
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Old 11-09-2017, 08:58 AM #179
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Yeah, I thought I read about those guys delaying fights with Mayweather before too, thanks for the confirmation. While there will be some criticism of Floyd's resume, nobody will doubt his skill, achievements and some good wins he had. And I loved it when Floyd joked about Shane still having a Jheri curl, saying he got in that Hot Tub Time Machine haha. I almost thought he was gonna do a Soul Glo reference.
I go back and watch the DLH and Mosley 24/7s from time to time because they were just too funny. He went in on those guys the most because they both avoided him when he was on the come up especially Mosley. A lot of what he said to Oscar was hilarious too. “Hi my names Oscar De La Hoya I’m gonna do this I’m gonna do that! You ain’t gonna do s*it.” What’s interesting is they were supposed to fight again in 2008 but it didn’t happen because Oscar still wanted the lion share of the purse despite losing. That backfired on him badly, because even if he lost again he still could’ve fought other top guys. Going back down to 147 for the first time in 7 years was such a stupid move and there was no coming back from the way he lost against Pacquiao.
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