Do you believe in the big bang theory?

[Lomasexual]

Actually, we already covered that earlier in the thread... You have to scroll up and read...

Which part?

I read your post where you talked about exploding matter needing to decelerate.

However I don't see where the expansion of space/time as opposed to matter was discussed.

[Monaco Slim]

I believe in the Leviathan, the god of flesh, hunger, and desire.

[Larry the boss]

dumbest theory ever

[-Kev-]

The big crunch theory is very interesting , there would be infinite universes and its a never ending cycle

What happens to time when crunch happens does everything go backwards? I feel like people are not equipped to comprehend how would that work because our understanding of laws of universe is very limited

From what I understand in the first inflation of space, it's just an expansion of space and the objects actually stay in the same place, just with more room surrounding galaxies. Hence why even in our universes expansion, our galaxies stay intact, they don't expand along with space. But the galaxies outside of ours are moving further away from ours. So a big crunch would just move them closer to ours.

Idc how much research is done on how the universe started i'm always going to want to know the real way that it started (and will die never knowing) and I don't think i'll ever believe that the universe started from a singularity and i'm glad that scientists now don't believe that either. What I want to know is if it's even possible for the universe to stop expanding and actually crunch again, and what would make it do that? How does that even work? Is space like an untied party balloon? Where you give it air (in this case dark matter and gravity) until a certain point of expansion before it blows up, and then you stop giving it air without tying the entry point of the balloon, so the balloon deflates up to a small space and then the process starts all over again? If that's the case what is making this process start and stop over and over again (assuming it's a process that continues)?

[Lomasexual]

From what I understand in the first inflation of space, it's just an expansion of space and the objects actually stay in the same place, just with more room surrounding galaxies. Hence why even in our universes expansion, our galaxies stay intact, they don't expand along with space. But the galaxies outside of ours are moving further away from ours. So a big crunch would just move them closer to ours.

Idc how much research is done on how the universe started i'm always going to want to know the real way that it started (and will die never knowing) and I don't think i'll ever believe that the universe started from a singularity and i'm glad that scientists now don't believe that either. What I want to know is if it's even possible for the universe to stop expanding and actually crunch again, and what would make it do that? How does that even work? Is space like an untied party balloon? Where you give it air (in this case dark matter and gravity) until a certain point of expansion before it blows up, and then you stop giving it air without tying the entry point of the balloon, so the balloon deflates up to a small space and then the process starts all over again? If that's the case what is making this process start and stop over and over again (assuming it's a process that continues)?

I think you might be writing off the big bang via singularity a little too quickly.

Yes, it all gets a bit weird if trying to discuss things smaller then a Planck length, but I think most models still begin at around that size.

Apparently the idea of a 'bouncing' universe, one that expands, then contracts, before having a 'big crunch' followed by another 'big bang' has proven to be unlikely. The generally accepted physics would mean that each phase of expansion would be longer than the previous one due to the various conservation laws.

Although personally, I don't see why this would be the case. In a singularity, where the temporal dimension is compressed into a point, then cause and effect can be simultaneous, and the arrow of time is poking itself in it's own butt - so 'conservation' breaks down as a concept.

[MindGame]

Which part?

I read your post where you talked about exploding matter needing to decelerate.

However I don't see where the expansion of space/time as opposed to matter was discussed.

Ok, time is a instrument of relevant measurement... There must be matter present before time can become relevant... Before matter is present there is no time... Therefore time itself has a tangible beginning, when matter itself became present... Time and matter are co-dependent...
(We will get back to time after we address space.)

Space exist in either a occupied or unoccupied area... Just because it is not occupied by matter doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't exist... Space can't expand if there is no other area for space to expand into...

The Big Bang can't be true if the universe is expanding into something that shouldn't exist, something beyond the universe itself...

Back to time, now with space...
Time can only exist in a materal universe... As the Universe expands, time expands with it... Time does not exist beyond the Universe... Time as a means of measurement, can fluctuate depending on where the matter being measured by time is located... Within the context of the Big Bang, the closer to the center of the origin of the Big Bang the matter is, the faster time passes... The further away matter is from the origin of the Big Bang the slower time passes...

A microcosm of this can be observed by astronauts who leave the Earth... The further from the Earth the astronaut is, the slower time moves for them (This despite the fact that they are not cognizant of that)...
When they return to Earth the've aged less quickly than those who stayed on the Earth...
I suspect that science can come up with a accurate equation only after measuring time from points of reference that are continuously gauged further from the Earth...

Back to the Universe, time should be slowest at the furtherst reaches of our expanding Universe... But it is not, the matter is expanding at an accelerating rate... This can't be true if there is nothing beyond the Universe... The Universe itself can't expand if there is no area for space to expand into...

As far as the second law of Thermodynamics is concerned...
Entropy can only be reasonably consistent in a isolated system...
The universe itself can be a isolated system, however it is expanding at an accelerated rate, thus a parameter beyond the universe must exist... In order for increasingly accelerating expansion to exist the entropy must be interacting with unknown outside variables...

If it's in a non-isolated system, then by definition something exists beyond its isolation...

In short, there's more out there than the Big Bang theory can account for...

[Lomasexual]

Ok, time is a instrument of relevant measurement... There must be matter present before time can become relevant... Before matter is present there is no time... Therefore time itself has a tangible beginning, when matter itself became present... Time and matter are co-dependent...
(We will get back to time after we address space.)

This description of time is not one that I have seen outside of religious forums.

Time is a dimension. The relationship between matter and energy and spacetime is the subject of a huge amount of study (although my sentence there is a gross oversimplification).

Time and matter interact. This doesn't mean that they are codependent.

Space exist in either a occupied or unoccupied area... Just because it is not occupied by matter doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't exist... Space can't expand if there is no other area for space to expand into...

I think you are getting space confused. A dimension doesn't need anywhere to expand into. Dimensions are not the same as matter.

It is difficult to understand this. I often see people fail to understand that there is no 'before' the big bang, and there is no 'outside' the universe.

The Big Bang can't be true if the universe is expanding into something that shouldn't exist, something beyond the universe itself...

The big bang model can be true as to explain the current phenomena that we observe, but it would no longer be a starting point for everything.

But there is nothing to say that there is anything beyond the universe. Again, not being able to understand how a dimension expands (as opposed to matter) doesn't mean that the universe is expanding into something.

Back to time, now with space...
Time can only exist in a materal universe... As the Universe expands, time expands with it... Time does not exist beyond the Universe... Time as a means of measurement, can fluctuate depending on where the matter being measured by time is located... Within the context of the Big Bang, the closer to the center of the origin of the Big Bang the matter is, the faster time passes... The further away matter is from the origin of the Big Bang the slower time passes...

Again, this is not a description of time I would see anywhere outside religious beliefs. Time does not require matter to exist.

A microcosm of this can be observed by astronauts who leave the Earth... The further from the Earth the astronaut is, the slower time moves for them (This despite the fact that they are not cognizant of that)...
When they return to Earth the've aged less quickly than those who stayed on the Earth...
I suspect that science can come up with a accurate equation only after measuring time from points of reference that are continuously gauged further from the Earth...

Relatavistic effects on time are pretty well known, and can be calculated accurately. This doesn't really do anything to support your initial ideas about there being some kind of interdependence between time and matter. It just describes the interactions between them.

Back to the Universe, time should be slowest at the furtherst reaches of our expanding Universe... But it is not, the matter is expanding at an accelerating rate... This can't be true if there is nothing beyond the Universe... The Universe itself can't expand if there is no area for space to expand into...

Again, this seems to misunderstand what a dimension is. It is also swapping the concepts of matter and space.

As far as the second law of Thermodynamics is concerned...
Entropy can only be reasonably consistent in a isolated system...
The universe itself can be a isolated system, however it is expanding at an accelerated rate, thus a parameter beyond the universe must exist... In order for increasingly accelerating expansion to exist the entropy must be interacting with unknown outside variables...

Expansion doesn't imply a reduction in entropy. Entropy is increasing in the expanding universe. One of the predicted outcomes of the big bang is essentially a state of maximum entropy.

If it's in a non-isolated system, then by definition something exists beyond its isolation...

In short, there's more out there than the Big Bang theory can account for...

There are certainly issues with the big bang theory, but I don't think you have addressed any of them.

[-Kev-]

Well Kev,
You seem far more reasonable than I expected, my apologies...
Some will doggedly hold on to something they can't honestly believe to be true, for ego's sake... Refreshingly, that doesn't seem to be the case with you, kudos...

Now let's extrapolate a little bit with the science... The bottom line with the "Big Bang" theory seems to be busted... As knowledge increases, so does understanding... Our knowledge of the continuously accelerating expansion (Among other things) of our universe leds us to understand that "The Big Bang Theory" can't be true... Thus science struggles through Growing Pains with more complete understanding...

I suggest that our understanding (Of anything) is therefore limited by our knowledge... I have something for you to consider from a purely potentially observable scientific perspective...
Please be either open-minded or simply recognize the possibility that science could someday find a way to tangibly detect what I'm asking you to consider...

Once upon a time we had no knowledge of X-Rays, despite their existence.. Now science understands them, can detect them and apply them...

We also had no knowledge of infrared light, despite it's existence... Now science understands it, can detect it and apply it...

We had no knowledge of microwaves, despite it's existence... Now science understands them, can detect them and apply them...

We had no knowledge of radio waves, despite it's existence... Now science understands them, can detect them and apply them... (I think that's enough examples, we could go on almost indefinitely.)

We Do have knowledge of emotions, but science has yet to find a definitive way to detect or measure them... Such as a lens when viewed through, can assign colors to emotions... Like Rage is Red or optimism is Green...

Would you agree that emotions can't be viewed or detected tangibly, but the effects of emotions can be observed, therefore proven to exist ??? Someday science might create a mechanism through which emotions can be precisely discerned...

I ask you to consider the possibility of the Spiritual World (God )... Just because science has yet to figure out a way to detect it (God's Spiritual World) or observe it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist...

I will concede that science might someday figure out a concrete instrument to view, observe and/or interact with the Spiritual World... I don't know if it's unlikely or impossible, perhaps it might only be a matter of time ???

Would you concede the fact that the Spiritual World might actually exist (God) and science simply has yet to invent a way to detect/observe it ???

In a similar way that science at one time never even conceived X-Rays, Microwaves, Radio Waves and Infrared Light, despite their existence...

Remember, as knowledge increases so does understanding...

Well I get what you're saying but i'm gonna be completely honest with you, I can't answer those questions until I can look up how x-rays were made (I imagine like almost everything it was accidental), microwaves (for some reason I think this had to do with Tesla), how radio waves were discovered (again I assume this was Tesla but I actually don't know), how infrared light was discovered.

But to give you a temporary answer while I research these things, all I can say right now is that I think it's like comparing apples and oranges, as far the spiritual world vs the scientific world goes.

[Tom Cruise]

[Lomasexual]

These seem to be pretty good.

Nice.