Why Mike Tyson Beats a Prime George Foreman

[Mr.MojoRisin']

What makes Foreman so dangerous in the 70s is his volume of punches combined with power, chin, and skills. Tyson has the ability to beat Foreman with quickness and elusiveness but its hard to imagine him standing in the center of the ring trading blows with Foreman for a few rounds and coming out on top. He'd have to catch Foreman first and not let up. That's the only way I could see Tyson coming out with the W. He wasn't physical enough for Foreman as were most fighters.

[billeau2]

What makes Foreman so dangerous in the 70s is his volume of punches combined with power, chin, and skills. Tyson has the ability to beat Foreman with quickness and elusiveness but its hard to imagine him standing in the center of the ring trading blows with Foreman for a few rounds and coming out on top. He'd have to catch Foreman first and not let up. That's the only way I could see Tyson coming out with the W. He wasn't physical enough for Foreman as were most fighters.

Brilliant post. I can't give you Green on this wish I could.

[billeau2]

This is part of my why Mike Tyson beats fighter X series. For a frame of reference im referring to Tyson circa 1987-1988.

1. The gap in skill is quite a gap.The way Foreman fougt Ali was like WTF. He fought Ali similar to how Max Baer fought Primo Carnera except Baer won. It isnt too far fetched to imagine Max fighting Ali the same way Foreman did.

Foreman a lot of times left himself opened to be countered and had a habit of using his jaw to block punches. It all caught up with him once he fought someone in a position to exploit those errors. A prime Tyson on the other hands was elusive, a great counter puncher and could pick his shots very well. Foreman would struggle greatly to land on Tyson

I want to make a disclaimer and say Foreman was a greater fighter than Bonecrusher Smith. That said, Foreman wasnt any faster or defensively sound. Tyson would bob, weave, slip and counter like he did fighting Smith. The difference being Foreman probably wouldn't resort to holding and waltzing for 12 rounds just to survive.

2. Speed. A Tyson/Foreman fight would be about who gets there first with the most. Foreman is not beating Tyson to the punch consistently. As far as handspeed, Tyson is rated along with Ali and Patterson for being one of the most quick handed heavies of all time. Tyson also was much lighter on his feet than Foreman and had clearly superior footwork. Tyson wouldn't come straight ahead like Fraizer, he'd be using angles to get in range. The handspeed difference would leave Tyson with a smorgasboard of counterpunching opportunities. In the Fraizer Foreman rematch, Foreman missed many punches against a very faded Fraizer. Fraizer just didnt have the tools to capitalize on it anymore. Tyson wouldnt have that problem.

3. Chin. This is a big one. As far as I can tell, many think Foreman will beat Tyson once he just lands a few punches. This is absurd. One, KO'ing Fraizer, Roman and Norton in no way, shape or form automatically means therefore you'll KO a prime Mike Tyson. In the 70s, Foremans best weight was 225 pounds approximately at 6'3. Tysons best weight was 218 at 5'11. Theres this erroneous idea that Foreman would just be towering over Tyson with his shadow just engulfing Tyson and blocking out the sun.

From reading a lot of posts on Foreman vs Tyson, its easy to walk away with the idea that Foreman was this 7'1 335 pound giant carved out of marble that could bench press a city bus and turn cinderblocks into powder with a single uppercut. Meanwhile Tyson becomes this featherfisted fairy with the punching power of your local high school homecoming princess and the chin thereof. I read on here somewhere that Tysons best left hook would just bounce off of Foremans chin and make him mad. Absurdity!

Tyson fought and beat bigger punchers than 6'3 225 lbs that had punching power in the same zip code as Foremans.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE if anyone disagrees dont just assert it! Back it up with film. If you think Ruddock couldnt hit at least ALMOST as hard as a 70s Foreman, post film of their various knockouts so we can see the result their punches had on their various opponents. And out of Foremans 68 KOs, the vast majority where of the same calibur of opponents that Ruddock, Smith, Bruno etc knocked out on their way up.

A washed up Tyson took the best bombs of SHW mega puncher Lennox Lewis for 8 rounds. Even if Foreman did land solid a prime Tyson isnt just going to fall over.

Tysons chin was superior to Lyles, Scott Ledoux, Jimmy Young, Boone Kirkman. None of those guys just fell over as if dead when Foreman hit them the first time. Why would Tyson?

History shows us that Tyson was never stopped or seriously hurt early. He was only stopped late by fighters who punched in accurate combinations and went out of their way to hit without getting hit.

Foreman was hurt early as history shows us. Badly staggered by Ali and dropped and badly staggered by Ron Lyle. Neither had the combination of speed, accuracy, punching power and finishing ability Tyson did.

Thus, if anyone would be in trouble early in a 70s Foreman/80s Tyson matchup, history teaches us that it likely would be Foreman which brings me to my next point

4. Foreman would have no other options but an early stoppage which is highly unlikely. From the opening bell of round 1 the clock would be ticking. There would be no 10th or 11th round in which Foreman would be throwing combinations. If he gasses out mid rounds against a Mike Tyson on the rampage, he's in serious trouble. There is nothing historically we can point to that gives us any indication that Tyson would be in any early trouble. Perhaps Foreman wobbles Tyson for a few seconds similar to how Bruno did, but that likely would be it. I dont care if he had Fraizers style or not (he didnt) Tyson could take a way better shot, as far as single power punches are concerned.

My prediction:

Tyson wins by mid round KO after scoring a knockdown. This includes any version of Tyson up until 1991. Post Rooney Tyson just struggles a little bit more and takes some extra unnecessary punches.



Truthfully if prime Tyson was in the early 70s, Ali would realistically be the only one who could oppose him and have a realistic chance at victory. Before Ali's era, Prime Tyson would rule unopposed as the only one before Ali who could POSSIBLY beat a prime Tyson was Joe Louis and even then, thats up in the air.

You forgot one of the most important qualities to compare: Reach! Also you cannot compare Foreman to Ruddock. I actually like Razor but he became, by the time he fought Tyson, a one armed fighter with inside game. Foreman had a great reach, he could hit either hand and his jab was not an easy one to walk through, unless one could walk through a telephone pole to the head.

If Tyson could win this he would have to find a way and beat the law of averages on two points, first, he would have to get past a jab that when not slipped could snap the head back hard...Second he would have to catch Foreman before being tied up and controlled inside by Foreman who was at least as skilled as Razor in controlling the fight inside against a smaller man. And weight is not the issue because Foreman was a bigger man than Tyson no matter what their relative weight was.

Heres the tape that shows Foreman against a bobber and weaver and not just any bobber and weaver lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz3tPjLhw2U

Lets look at the tape and we will see that actually for the first 30 seconds or so Frazier has some success, but as soon as Foreman gets leverage, and redirects Joe a few times its pretty much over. At a distance the jab snaps joe's head back, but when Joe starts to come in Foreman has incredible leverage the same leverage he would have against Tyson. I don't know if Mike, who was more fleet of foot than Joe, could get in to get to Foreman.

[HandsofIron]

Prime Mike Tyson beats everyone except the Super Heavyweights (over 250 lbs), i.e. Lennox Lewis, Vitali and Wladimir Klitschko.

[OctoberRed]

Prime Mike Tyson beats everyone except the Super Heavyweights (over 250 lbs), i.e. Lennox Lewis, Vitali and Wladimir Klitschko.

What would a Tyson vs. prime Tua fight look like? BOMBS AWAY!

[uncle ben]

You forgot one of the most important qualities to compare: Reach! Also you cannot compare Foreman to Ruddock. I actually like Razor but he became, by the time he fought Tyson, a one armed fighter with inside game. Foreman had a great reach, he could hit either hand and his jab was not an easy one to walk through, unless one could walk through a telephone pole to the head.

If Tyson could win this he would have to find a way and beat the law of averages on two points, first, he would have to get past a jab that when not slipped could snap the head back hard...Second he would have to catch Foreman before being tied up and controlled inside by Foreman who was at least as skilled as Razor in controlling the fight inside against a smaller man. And weight is not the issue because Foreman was a bigger man than Tyson no matter what their relative weight was.

Heres the tape that shows Foreman against a bobber and weaver and not just any bobber and weaver lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz3tPjLhw2U

Lets look at the tape and we will see that actually for the first 30 seconds or so Frazier has some success, but as soon as Foreman gets leverage, and redirects Joe a few times its pretty much over. At a distance the jab snaps joe's head back, but when Joe starts to come in Foreman has incredible leverage the same leverage he would have against Tyson. I don't know if Mike, who was more fleet of foot than Joe, could get in to get to Foreman.

A prime Tyson isn't comparable to any version of Frazier, let alone the version who showed up in Jamaica. Tyson was bigger, a heavier hitter, faster and more elusive. In fact, I'd compare him more to Floyd Patterson than Joe Frazier. A prime Tyson was like a super Patterson, about 30 pounds of muscle heavier, with approximately the same speed and skill with a solid chin and more punching power. Foreman could tie up an opponent, but Bonecrusher Smith and Mitch Green and Tony Tucker, all big men, tried that with Tyson and while it allowed them to see the last bell, it lost them a UD.

I don't think Foreman would come to survive, but win and so I don't think he'd excessively clinch Tyson like the above did. And while I personally rate Foreman as a better fighter than Bonecrusher Smith, he had similar hand speed to Smith and similar reach. The reason Smith started to clinch was because Tyson was slipping and weaving between all of his punches and landing clean counters. Smith could punch and punch hard, but vs Tyson he was hitting air. As for the jab, Tyson's style was built around slipping and countering the jab's of taller men.

And when it comes to chin, a washed up Tyson survived 8 rounds of being non stop pummeled by Lennox Lewis, who may have hit as hard as Foreman and was a more effective puncher. So while Tyson couldn't continually take bomb after bomb all night long, he had the chin to survive the occasional big punch that he'd be hit with.

[billeau2]

A prime Tyson isn't comparable to any version of Frazier, let alone the version who showed up in Jamaica. Tyson was bigger, a heavier hitter, faster and more elusive. In fact, I'd compare him more to Floyd Patterson than Joe Frazier. A prime Tyson was like a super Patterson, about 30 pounds of muscle heavier, with approximately the same speed and skill with a solid chin and more punching power. Foreman could tie up an opponent, but Bonecrusher Smith and Mitch Green and Tony Tucker, all big men, tried that with Tyson and while it allowed them to see the last bell, it lost them a UD.

I don't think Foreman would come to survive, but win and so I don't think he'd excessively clinch Tyson like the above did. And while I personally rate Foreman as a better fighter than Bonecrusher Smith, he had similar hand speed to Smith and similar reach. The reason Smith started to clinch was because Tyson was slipping and weaving between all of his punches and landing clean counters. Smith could punch and punch hard, but vs Tyson he was hitting air. As for the jab, Tyson's style was built around slipping and countering the jab's of taller men.

And when it comes to chin, a washed up Tyson survived 8 rounds of being non stop pummeled by Lennox Lewis, who may have hit as hard as Foreman and was a more effective puncher. So while Tyson couldn't continually take bomb after bomb all night long, he had the chin to survive the occasional big punch that he'd be hit with.

Its not that Frazier is Tyson per se, but the architecture has similarities that tell us things. Frazier was a bob and weave guy, and like Dempsey and Tyson a bob and weave guy has to have a place to set up. One way to beat them is timing, throwing when they set up to come in. Reach allows one to get there before the set up. Also you lionize Tyson when comparing him to Frazier. Tyson had horrible reach and would have a heck of a time getting into Foreman...

The problem is that Tyson would have to find a way to use his strength and Foreman had such good leverage. My point is that Frazier's approach and style was similar enough that it gives an idea of what Tyson would have to overcome.

[The Old LefHook]

Once in a while in boxing a result flabbergasts and defies prediction. Both Tyson and Foreman specialized in this shock treatment.

I can tell you what their fight will not be. It will not be a back and forth affair where both men are hurt, manage to recover, inflict more damage, and so on into the late rounds.

Forget it. Either Foreman comes out and treats Mike like Frazier, or Mike comes out and immediately shows he has a way to surpass Foreman. These guys are not going to beat on each other back and forth all night. Neither one could take that. When their styles and strengths mesh, someone will quickly emerge with the upper hand. From there, it is lights out or a sustained, one-sided licking until lights out.

Tyson characteristically did not gain back the upper hand in fights where he had lost it or where he did not possess it upon emerging from initial mesh up, with the exception of his near success against Douglas. Other than that brief exception, when Tyson lost the advantage in a contest, it stayed lost. One saw very early indeed in those fights that Lewis, Holyfield twice, and Douglas would beat Mike up.

[uncle ben]

Its not that Frazier is Tyson per se, but the architecture has similarities that tell us things. Frazier was a bob and weave guy, and like Dempsey and Tyson a bob and weave guy has to have a place to set up. One way to beat them is timing, throwing when they set up to come in. Reach allows one to get there before the set up. Also you lionize Tyson when comparing him to Frazier. Tyson had horrible reach and would have a heck of a time getting into Foreman...

The problem is that Tyson would have to find a way to use his strength and Foreman had such good leverage. My point is that Frazier's approach and style was similar enough that it gives an idea of what Tyson would have to overcome.

I do think however that you have to account for physical attributes as well as style when making predictions. For example, Robinson and Ali had similar styles. But you wouldn't say that Lamotta could drop Ali just because he managed to floor Robinson. The reason is the physical differences between Ali and Robinson. Ali was a much bigger man than Robinson and although Robinson was a KO puncher at middle and below and pound for pound was a harder puncher than Ali, when it comes to absolute punching power, it's extremely likely that Ali hit harder than Robinson. So even though Lamotta was an iron chinned middle weight, Ali would probably did what Robinson couldn't and floored Lamotta. Because of the physical differences.

Now I know the physical differences between Tyson and Frazier aren't as extreme as the physical differences between Robinson and Ali or Lamotta and Ali. But they are still significant enough. Tyson is physically closer to Foreman than he is Frazier, in an overall sense. He's similar to height when comparing him with Frazier, but overall muscle mass and weight, he's similar to Foreman. Also, Tyson had a better chin than Frazier, at least when it came to taking single heavy shots from big punchers. Frazier may have been better at taking punishment over the long haul from average HW puncher's than Tyson was, however. Mike Bruce and Oscar Bonavena dropped Frazier as well, but I think it'd be a misnomer to say they'd have dropped Tyson simply because he may have had a similar style as Frazier.

Frazier's best weight was 200-205 pounds, Tyson's best weight was 217-218 pounds, although he was effective as high as 220 pounds. And Tyson's body was noticeably more muscular than Frazier's. The issue is that I think Tyson could absorb more punishment than Frazier and keep coming. I'm not sure that if Frazier caught the clean shots that Tyson did from Razor Ruddock that he would've made it and even if he did, he'd have to get up off the canvas a time or two to make it happen.

[uncle ben]

Once in a while in boxing a result flabbergasts and defies prediction. Both Tyson and Foreman specialized in this shock treatment.

I can tell you what their fight will not be. It will not be a back and forth affair where both men are hurt, manage to recover, inflict more damage, and so on into the late rounds.

Forget it. Either Foreman comes out and treats Mike like Frazier, or Mike comes out and immediately shows he has a way to surpass Foreman. These guys are not going to beat on each other back and forth all night. Neither one could take that. When their styles and strengths mesh, someone will quickly emerge with the upper hand. From there, it is lights out or a sustained, one-sided licking until lights out.

Tyson characteristically did not gain back the upper hand in fights where he had lost it or where he did not possess it upon emerging from initial mesh up, with the exception of his near success against Douglas. Other than that brief exception, when Tyson lost the advantage in a contest, it stayed lost. One saw very early indeed in those fights that Lewis, Holyfield twice, and Douglas would beat Mike up.

Douglas and Holyfield fought Tyson in a very specific way while attempting to minimize the amount of punishment they took in return. Both fought like boxing master's the night they beat Tyson. And both were overall better BOXER's than Foreman. As far as just raw boxing skill is concerned. The main reason I think Tyson wins is because he showed he could take clean, single punches from big HW hitters and keep coming. Foreman could do it too, but he seemed to be hurt easier. Far as punching power and size goes, the only man Foreman fought in the 70's who was even remotely comparable to Lewis, Ruddock or Bruno was Ron Lyle. And we see what almost happened there and a prime Tyson was superior to Lyle in nearly every way.

And while I may be able to buy that Foreman hit harder than Ruddock, Bruno and Lewis, it seems far fetched that he hit so much harder that he could pull off in a round or 2 or 3 what they couldn't (and it took Lewis 8 rounds against a Tyson impostor) with a few shots. I'd wager that if you tested a 70's Foreman's hardest punches in a lab and tested Ruddock, Bruno and Lewis' hardest punches, even if Foreman was found to hit harder, it probably would be only just. I doubt it would be by this wide margin that the other 3 couldn't come close to. In fact, I've never seen Foreman KO any big man as brutally and completely as Ruddock did Dokes.

Essentially, what it comes down to is who get hurt and badly, first. Unless some miracle happens for the man hurt first, the one doing the hurting has the fight in the bag.