Robinson or Ali, who's really the greatest?

[billeau2]

Ali may have had the greatest ledger ever. There is no monster on Robinson's ledger comparable to Foreman, Liston, Frazier and Shavers for punching power.

LaMotta, Graziano, Turpijn and Fullmer were a handful all right, but perhaps not as immediately dangerous as what Ali faced. Lamotta and Fullmer were medium punchers for force. They were hard on you in a different way, that is true. Fighting them was grueling, but so was fighting Frazier.

Fullmer was like a cross between Frazier and Norton, but much dirtier. I cannot think of any middleweight who dispatches him easily. Some of the big punching middleweights that young fans probably think would take Gene out right away might be in for quite a surprise. Once Jackson or McClellan or Golovkin launched their best and Gene was still on them mauling them against the ropes, they could need a plan B. Fullmer made it tiring, if anything. He could punch hard downstairs a la Mickey Ward.

Fullmer might have been as difficult and problematic as Frazier. That's one away.

Ali faced a plethora of hugest punchers ever. This may be one hairline difference in their ledgers. We grant that Graziano and Turpin were both dangerous punchers who were no patsies when it came to taking it, either. But I do not think their ledgers suggest they are on the level of Liston, Foreman or Shavers for heavy handedness.

Ali faced a plethora of varying styles, too. But when it comes to scope of the opposition, Robinson may be in a league by himself. From maulers to technicians, none of them are even a little scarce on his record, other than the category of divisional AT P4P hardest punchers, and he might have faced one of those in Graziano. Zivic was one of the dirtiest and sneakiest ever, in a more tolerant era. Robinson faced many experienced Aces in his first three years. Later, Gavilan was one of the best boxing counter punchers of his day or in welterweight history. The kid was always a difficult puzzle.

Marty Servo is an often underrated double opponent of Robby's, it seems. I am not even sure of his style. Perhaps someone here knows. I may have read on two different occasions where he was described a boxer, and then again as a pressure fighter. Whatever the style, his record looks pretty good for an era that did not shape the records of young fighters so religiously as our own.

We know Robby faced an assortment of good maulers and pressure fighters.

Robinson had more experience but Ali had all he needed. Technically, Robinson complimented his talent with a full medicine bag of traditional knowledge, and was a harder P$P puncher.

How similar they were not just in style, is shocking. Punch absorption, stamina, will. Who could choose? The choice would be on such slim advantages that I would not trust my own judgment.

Great post I don't know why they won't let me green k anymore. Or why they won't raise my experience points. Im let with just having to write a post like this.

the heavyweights have a mythological property. They are the big men, the hardest hitters, the top of the food chain for the sweets of the sweet science.

[The Old LefHook]

Great post I don't know why they won't let me green k anymore. Or why they won't raise my experience points. Im let with just having to write a post like this.

the heavyweights have a mythological property. They are the big men, the hardest hitters, the top of the food chain for the sweets of the sweet science.

Those points are valuable. They will cheat you out of them if they can. One guy got a Corvett with his. Of course he had a lot.

[OctoberRed]

Funny how people that NEVER saw them fighters fight believe the media claim as them the best ever......

"Pretty Boy" Floyd "Money" Mayweather is The Best Ever
The Real "G.O.A.T."

Floyd is the ONLY man that defeated boxing, EVER!

Floyd is one of the best fighters of all time, no question, but he's not the best. He was the best businessman of all time, but he picked and choosed his opponents for years.

[amuroray]

How Is this even a debate lOl

Ray Robinson Is far far ahead of ali its unreal. NO heavyweight can claim goat status.

[BIGPOPPAPUMP]

How Is this even a debate lOl

Ray Robinson Is far far ahead of ali its unreal. NO heavyweight can claim goat status.

I agree with this here. I have Robinson on a much higher platform than Ali.

[DJ Enerate]

Robinson, Greb, Armstrong, Langford, Pep, Benny Leonard, Duran, Ali, Louis, Fitzsimmons.

Or something like that.

The top 3 are solidified. Ali doesn't belong there, neither does any other ATG.

[roxy]

Robinson was the best ever.

[PRINCEKOOL]

From a technical perspective (As a fighter) probably Sugar Ray Robinson, from a achievement perspective inside of the ring and outside? Muhammad Ali! Muhammad Ali is the boxing equivalent of Neil Armstrong, he changed the game in so many ways, and just so happened to be the greatest heavyweight fighter that ever lived! He was not just a fighter, he was a political figure! These days black men protest! Protesting has never solved anything! Only action does! Muhammad Ali, took action both inside and outside of the ring!

[GhostofDempsey]

Robinson, and it isn't even close.

Ali gets recognized for being "The Greatest" because he labeled himself as such. Back in the 1970s, television was a very powerful and influential platform. Screaming "I am the greatest" into Howard Cosell's microphone and having Cosell and other sports writers advocating such nonsense, convinced a very large and casual fanbase that he was in fact "The Greatest". Very similar to a "TBE" moniker that has stuck with the casual fanbase.

When breaking down Ali's career, there were a lot of things that worked to his favor in order to (a) make a lot of money for a lot of people and (b) revive boxing from it's dormancy in the 1960s. Two fixed fights with Liston, a win over an injured and much smaller Patterson, gift decisions versus Norton, Young, Shavers, and Chuvalo II, opponents who were often much smaller, all contributed greatly to his success.

Yes, he was a fast HW with a great chin. But, there were a lot of factors that led to his success and the media's love affair with Ali which helped seal his legacy.

Contrast that with Robison, who flourished in pre-Civil Rights era America. Never KO'd on his back in 200 fights. Only one TKO loss due to heat exhaustion while moving up in weight (he was ahead on the cards). Fought the most of the best of his era while they were at their best and had a career that spanned two decades and 200 fights. In his first 129 fights he only suffered one loss to LaMotta on his 41st fight, and went on to win 88 consecutive fights over 8 years after that loss.

The only criticism you can levy upon Robinson was his refusal to face any of the black murderer's row of fighters who could never get a shot at him...Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Jack Chase, Lloyd Marshall, et al.

[The Old LefHook]

Some of these other threads carry no interest for me. I will return to this one.

There really is no greatest. I believe we all know we are consenting to play a game of Opinion as if it were chess.

Some careers were spectacular, some natural talents awesome, some victories unforgettable, some medicine bags notable for plumpness. Right here on the forum we have broken it down into single categories every way you can think of in dozens of threads every year.

There being no single criterion that dominates all others for significance, we come back to what pleases us. Fighters who fight often are much preferred by the taste buds over ones that fight every now and then. Ali and Robinson both had a lot of fights for their respective eras and divisions. Not much to choose from, even there.

Guys like Greb will never go out of fashion for the taste buds. Who knows how many fights he really had? 400--500 is likely. The sheer number of contests, the quality of the opposition prevailed over, the durability needed to do it, are very strong indicators in themselves.

For disparity in speed over one's opposition, Roy Jones has got to be it, and probably would be even if he hadn't moved up a division or two. We can imagine a fighter so fast that his opposition's skill, punch and durability would not even matter, and Roy was almost that fighter.

It depends on how you put your categories together and weight them. Essentially, opinions, which are known to be worthless and free, are given a little more reasonable context within the game which disguises and treats them as logical propositions.

Some people just want to know who beats who, and base everything on that, when it comes to divisions. That is about where I stand with divisional supremacy myself.