Prime Holyfeild vs. Current Wlad

[Holtol]

do you read what is posted?


he lost because he had a horrific gameplan. he ran himself out of gas.
it's his gameplan (and not his level of conditioning, a perfectly conditioned 250 lb man can gas himself out rather easily if he's not smart with all that muscle) that gets him through fights.




additionally, his fight with purrity was sighted, not with brewster, because he was 22 year old at the time
22!
that's a boy in the heavyweight division.




and finally, you're very wrong about the size of the men


there are plenty of people in the NFL, NBA that would't have an iceberg's chance in hell of fighting at 200 lbs


there are plenty of men on the planet (with premium athletic talent)
who would weigh much more than 200 if they were in prizefighting shape

they just dont box anymore



the HW division is lacking in athletic talent because nobody special is going to boxing.
not because the athetes dont exist, dude.

.

The post I was responding to you seemed to think Wladimir is better because he filled out and has became more physical. I think it has more to do with him learning to box better. I believe Wladimir is physically going down hill at this point.

There is far less of a talent pool at over 200 pounds in boxing then other weights. A very small % of the worlds population would weight over 200 pounds if they trained hard for boxing. And most of those people would be just average and not have the rare elements it takes to be a great boxer. I believe thats why it takes big men longer to learn to box well. Because it does not come as naturally to them normally.

[New England]

The post I was responding to you seemed to think Wladimir is better because he filled out and has became more physical. I think it has more to do with him learning to box better. I believe Wladimir is physically going down hill at this point.

There is far less of a talent pool at over 200 pounds in boxing then other weights. A very small % of the worlds population would weight over 200 pounds if they trained hard for boxing. And most of those people would be just average and not have the rare elements it takes to be a great boxer. I believe thats why it takes big men longer to learn to box well. Because it does not come as naturally to them normally.

fair enough.
I do believe that contemporary wladimir takes a better shot than 22 year old wladimir. We're entitled to our opinions certainly.
i agree with some of the things here and would beg to differ on others

it certainly takes bigger men longer to coordinate a sound boxing performance over 12 rounds and to peak physically


i will see you around, champ

[$Bullsfam$]

New England that is absolutely ridiculous logic you have about "chin strength growing." You should have just dropped that pitiful logic when Poet hit you with apples and oranges. Punches accumulation can be adjusted especially when your confidence is high. But it don't matter how confident you are, if you get hit at the right time in the right place, your going to ****in sleep.

Your telling me that if Wladimir stood in front of prime Sonny Liston, Foreman or Tyson. Got knocked out at 20, his chin would be better and he'd less likely be KO'd when he turned his age now? Your boxing skills mature, not your chin.

As you can tell Wladimir was a lot more aggressive and wild in his younger days which got him gassed & rocked. The reason Wlad doesn't get hurt anymore is because he's 100% safety first now until Steward cusses him out in the 12th and tells him to stop letting the bum stay in the fight. He has a low output which is why he doesn't appear to gas anymore. Look at the Hopkins strategy, fight hard 1 minute, hard defense the rest. Nobody in this chumpy ass heavyweight division can get inside because their either so out of shape and all power they just don't have the skills do it or there all skills but small so they still can't get inside which is where they suck at anyway.

It's common obvious boxing knowledge your stamina is completely different when a actual threat is pressing you effectively which nobody has ever done to Wlad successfully in a long ass time. So he can get away with being safety first because he's so damn big that nobody can get past the jab and there scared of that overhand right yet I feel Wlad is more afraid of his opponents then they are of him. He doesn't realize his own strength it seems.

Holyfield would be in his ****in grill all day. Wear him down and stop him late. He'd have a pretty good chance of beating Vital too since Vital is more heart and guts with not as good defense so Holyfield could most likely outwork him.

[New England]

New England that is absolutely ridiculous logic you have about "chin strength growing." You should have just dropped that pitiful logic when Poet hit you with apples and oranges. Punches accumulation can be adjusted especially when your confidence is high. But it don't matter how confident you are, if you get hit at the right time in the right place, your going to ****in sleep.

Your telling me that if Wladimir stood in front of prime Sonny Liston, Foreman or Tyson. Got knocked out at 20, his chin would be better and he'd less likely be KO'd when he turned his age now? Your boxing skills mature, not your chin.

As you can tell Wladimir was a lot more aggressive and wild in his younger days which got him gassed & rocked. The reason Wlad doesn't get hurt anymore is because he's 100% safety first now until Steward cusses him out in the 12th and tells him to stop letting the bum stay in the fight. He has a low output which is why he doesn't appear to gas anymore. Look at the Hopkins strategy, fight hard 1 minute, hard defense the rest. Nobody in this chumpy ass heavyweight division can get inside because their either so out of shape and all power they just don't have the skills do it or there all skills but small so they still can't get inside which is where they suck at anyway.

It's common obvious boxing knowledge your stamina is completely different when a actual threat is pressing you effectively which nobody has ever done to Wlad successfully in a long ass time. So he can get away with being safety first because he's so damn big that nobody can get past the jab and there scared of that overhand right yet I feel Wlad is more afraid of his opponents then they are of him. He doesn't realize his own strength it seems.

Holyfield would be in his ****in grill all day. Wear him down and stop him late. He'd have a pretty good chance of beating Vital too since Vital is more heart and guts with not as good defense so Holyfield could most likely outwork him.

I'm saying he's going to take punches better in his prime than he will when he's still growing. And that HWs especially will take punches better if they're given time to mature physically (and in many cases fill out,) than they will against the same opponents and punches in their late teens and very early 20's



wladimir doesnt have a ton of milage for a HW with three stoppage losses and a long career
we cant really tell how depleted he is, because he's so rrarely hit
but that's not really what i'm arguing anyway.


the big punchers are still going to get to him, dude. i'm not saying they are not.

i feel like i need a disclaimer for every post that says i believe wladimir would get beat up and stopped after the mid rounds if he fought evander, perhaps even earlier if he decided to quit



maturing into his prime is not going to turn him into even a good chin having son of a gun
but it's going to help him take shots


but i'm sticking to it when i say a 22 year old wladimir (weighing less, being less mature physically) isnt going to take shots as well as wladimir in his prime


come on, brother, really?

if we were talking about a bantamweight i'd be singing a different tune

[BigStereotype]

Wlad has all the tools physically to be Holyfield and I think that Evander would get beat up pretty good in the first couple rounds. But mentally, Holyfield is the strongest fighter I have ever seen. He would have eventually forced Klitschko into a fight he doesn't want to fight and Klitschko is pretty one dimensional. Holyfield by 10th round stoppage, scorecards are pretty close.

[$Bullsfam$]

Homie, that has nothing to do with maturity. The ability to take punches has always been about heart, confidence, and chin. You either have it or you don't. You can't learn or grow heart. You either can take a bunch of punches or you can't. You can grow confidence but it's easily taken away. And you either have a good chin or you don't.

Some people like to get hit others don't. Look at Ricardo Mayorga. He gots the confidence and throws his chin out there because he don't mind getting hit because when somebody exchanges with them he has the confidence he can take their best shot and possibly hurt them with his own. But after he gasses in round 5, he looses that confidence, his heart starts to fade, which all that leaves is his chin as his last line of defense which takes another solid few punches until he eventually goes down.

You might now like that example because it's a brawler. Well look at Pernell Whitaker. He stuck his chin out numerous times because he was that ****in good. He even did it when he was getting older against the young hungry lion De La Hoya. Even Chavez he didn't really keep his hands up all the time, a lot of times he relied on pure head movement because he knew he had the stamina to go rounds, which brought confidence, and he had the confidence that even if he was hit it wouldn't do nothing. Whitaker was never truely in danger of getting hurt or badly stopped ever because he had the chin to take Tito's best shots even when he had his jaw broken earlier in the fight in a fight where he was towards the end of his career.

Pernell didn't mature into being able to take punches, he's always had the heart, chin and confidence get through any adversity because he was that good.

Also fighters careers get ruined because of getting destroyed by fighters. Look at Jeff Lacey. Calzaghe absolutely ruined his career when he trashed him. He was never the same, never had the same confidence in himself after that fight. Calzaghe owns his heart and soul. And thats ****in embarrassing I might add that I have to use that example but it was the quickest one to come to mind.

Look at Michael Kasiditis. This man has the heart, will and chin of a true warrior but even he can only take so much punishment. He can't mature into taking more. He'll brawl with you until the very end but if he don't take you out he'll gas and get his lights put out.

Wlad DOES NOT WANT TO GET HIT. He knows he can't take much of a punch so he does his best to use those long ass arms to jab so he can't get hit. These bums he fight today can not get inside because they aren't talented enough the ones that have the power to chin check him so their easily jabbed, jabbed, jabbed, clinched, jabbed jabbed jabbed clinched. Which tires them out. Because they lose confidence because they know they can't get inside which frustrates them getting jabbed in the face for 10 rounds takes it's toll not to mention Wlad's body weight on them constantly clinching. So eventually they break and when Stewart says the word he finally opens up and is able to KO them because it don't take much.

Theres a reason Wlad didn't fight Lennox and Vital did because Vital was the better style match up because he had the better chin and stamina. I give Wlad credit, he's smart as hell which makes him look good by fighting smart but nobody's fooled.

Throw prime Holyfield, Bowe, Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Tyson, and Lewis, they would get on the inside make him fight at a higher pace, he'd get extremely uncomfortable fighting at a higher pace, gas and then get KTFO if he wasn't caught before hand before he gasses.

[Scott9945]

Wlad has all the tools physically to be Holyfield and I think that Evander would get beat up pretty good in the first couple rounds. But mentally, Holyfield is the strongest fighter I have ever seen. He would have eventually forced Klitschko into a fight he doesn't want to fight and Klitschko is pretty one dimensional. Holyfield by 10th round stoppage, scorecards are pretty close.

Good analysis.

[New England]

Homie, that has nothing to do with maturity. The ability to take punches has always been about heart, confidence, and chin. You either have it or you don't. You can't learn or grow heart. You either can take a bunch of punches or you can't. You can grow confidence but it's easily taken away. And you either have a good chin or you don't.

Some people like to get hit others don't. Look at Ricardo Mayorga. He gots the confidence and throws his chin out there because he don't mind getting hit because when somebody exchanges with them he has the confidence he can take their best shot and possibly hurt them with his own. But after he gasses in round 5, he looses that confidence, his heart starts to fade, which all that leaves is his chin as his last line of defense which takes another solid few punches until he eventually goes down.

You might now like that example because it's a brawler. Well look at Pernell Whitaker. He stuck his chin out numerous times because he was that ****in good. He even did it when he was getting older against the young hungry lion De La Hoya. Even Chavez he didn't really keep his hands up all the time, a lot of times he relied on pure head movement because he knew he had the stamina to go rounds, which brought confidence, and he had the confidence that even if he was hit it wouldn't do nothing. Whitaker was never truely in danger of getting hurt or badly stopped ever because he had the chin to take Tito's best shots even when he had his jaw broken earlier in the fight in a fight where he was towards the end of his career.

Pernell didn't mature into being able to take punches, he's always had the heart, chin and confidence get through any adversity because he was that good.

Also fighters careers get ruined because of getting destroyed by fighters. Look at Jeff Lacey. Calzaghe absolutely ruined his career when he trashed him. He was never the same, never had the same confidence in himself after that fight. Calzaghe owns his heart and soul. And thats ****in embarrassing I might add that I have to use that example but it was the quickest one to come to mind.

Look at Michael Kasiditis. This man has the heart, will and chin of a true warrior but even he can only take so much punishment. He can't mature into taking more. He'll brawl with you until the very end but if he don't take you out he'll gas and get his lights put out.

Wlad DOES NOT WANT TO GET HIT. He knows he can't take much of a punch so he does his best to use those long ass arms to jab so he can't get hit. These bums he fight today can not get inside because they aren't talented enough the ones that have the power to chin check him so their easily jabbed, jabbed, jabbed, clinched, jabbed jabbed jabbed clinched. Which tires them out. Because they lose confidence because they know they can't get inside which frustrates them getting jabbed in the face for 10 rounds takes it's toll not to mention Wlad's body weight on them constantly clinching. So eventually they break and when Stewart says the word he finally opens up and is able to KO them because it don't take much.

Theres a reason Wlad didn't fight Lennox and Vital did because Vital was the better style match up because he had the better chin and stamina. I give Wlad credit, he's smart as hell which makes him look good by fighting smart but nobody's fooled.

Throw prime Holyfield, Bowe, Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Tyson, and Lewis, they would get on the inside make him fight at a higher pace, he'd get extremely uncomfortable fighting at a higher pace, gas and then get KTFO if he wasn't caught before hand before he gasses.

we can agree to disagree about the maturation process of a heavyweight

i've never called wladimir a hard man
he's probably grown up since his losses
but he's quit before.

his heart and chin certainly seperates him from the great hw's, and leads me to rate him behind his brother by a good deal, even though he;s the better athlete and arguably boxer


i dont think bowe, foreman, liston, or lewis would elect to get inside on wladimir. they'd try and make him fight, but that doesnt neccessarily involve infighting.

they'd probably look for / create an opportunity to turn the heat up and land something big and stop him after boxing smart to begin the fight.

[Holtol]

fair enough.
I do believe that contemporary wladimir takes a better shot than 22 year old wladimir. We're entitled to our opinions certainly.
i agree with some of the things here and would beg to differ on others

it certainly takes bigger men longer to coordinate a sound boxing performance over 12 rounds and to peak physically


i will see you around, champ

I have not seen Wlad been hit like Sanders hit him in a long time so I don't know if he can take a punch better or not. Maybe one day we will see if you are right. I don't see anyone right now who will be able to get to Wladimirs chin but in a few years Wlad will be slowing down and might get punched hard more often.

[GJC]

Good fighters are problem solvers unfortunately the opponents that Wlad has been fighting haven't had the nous to set him any problems. I haven't seen anything in Wlad that leads me to believe that he could problem solve against a "live" body.
But hey he's big so i'd definately back him to win the weigh in after that my money's on Holyfield.
Holyfield would take him out of his comfort zone, once a fighters out of his comfort zone then it comes down to heart and thinking on your feet. I seriously have doubts on Wlad on that score more so than any lack of chin or stamina. Not saying that Wlad doesn't have any heart but on the few occasions in the past when he has had to dig deep he has come up short. As for thinking on his feet, over the last 5 years he has never had to resort to a plan B so the big question is does he have one?
You only have to think of Ali/Foreman. Foreman had been having easy nights work and now he had a man in front of him that was forcing him to dig deep, posing him problems and making him question his abilities. Foreman wasn't equiped to handle it.