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Old 11-20-2018, 12:02 PM #121
HOUDINI563 HOUDINI563 is offline
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That same promotor broke the previous contract to make the bout by handing Dempsey a check that bounced. This ended the chance at that time for the bout to occur. Dempsey had a lucrative deal to fight Tunney which I am sure in his mind was more of a guaranteed payday vs fight for a promotor that screwed him previously. No ATG hwt champion is afraid to fight anyone. That would include Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano and Ali. To believe otherwise shows a lack of boxing history.
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Old 11-20-2018, 07:00 PM #122
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Originally Posted by HOUDINI563 View Post
That same promotor broke the previous contract to make the bout by handing Dempsey a check that bounced. This ended the chance at that time for the bout to occur. Dempsey had a lucrative deal to fight Tunney which I am sure in his mind was more of a guaranteed payday vs fight for a promotor that screwed him previously. No ATG hwt champion is afraid to fight anyone. That would include Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano and Ali. To believe otherwise shows a lack of boxing history.
It wasn't the same promoter. The rights were sold to the Chicago Coliseum Club, if I remember correctly. In any event, when that promoter that you mentioned bounced that check, Dempsey still agreed to go ahead and sign this contract that I'm referring to, to get the fight done with Wills through a different promoter. So there is no excuse. If that was the reason for ducking out, then why go along with another contract anyway? Especially if Wills was really the man he wanted.

A US court found the contract to be valid and binding. The money was shown to be IN PLACE and IN ACCORDANCE with the contract. Dempsey stated that he wanted to fight Wills since 1919, in his own words. He must have forgotten that he publicly drew the color line in 1919, renounced it later (1920?), and then drew the color line again in 1921....and in the statement he made in 1921 he mentioned that drawing the color-line made him free to say that Wills was an excellent fighter who would lick most any other fighter out there.

I don't know if he was afraid or not, but saying that he wanted to fight the man since 1919, then having to be dragged to court, while having a court issue an injunction to stop him from ducking, and also having it IN THE CONTRACT that he would be legally entitled to receive a whopping sum of money in the event that a certain amount wasn't paid to him by a certain time before the fight was to come off reeks of ducking. There is no way around that.

And I don't know if he was scared of Joe Jeannette or not, but he clearly ducked him in New York, saying he would face any white man instead. That right there shows that he didn't want to face a black contender at that time. And there should be no excuses that no one wanted it to happen, because it is well documented that he was booed heavily by the crowd, audibly being labeled a yellow coward.

Again, all of this is well documented and I can provide the proof if you should need it.

Last edited by travestyny; 11-20-2018 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 11-20-2018, 07:28 PM #123
HOUDINI563 HOUDINI563 is offline
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What we need to see is Dempsey’s court testimony so we can gauge his mindset. What we have is a judges opinion but what we need to see is Dempsey’s side of the coin. We need to see that in its totality.

Dempsey, as hwt champion of the world, actively seeking to make the fight occur is proof in of itself that he wanted to fight Wills. It was a historically unheard of activity.

The Jeanette exhibition is very well known. Dempsey is appearing to fight an exhibition and Jeanette shows up. No top hwt is going to fight another top hwt as an exhibition. It would be akin to Ali showing up to have an exhibition against Lyle Alzado and instead of Lyle Alzado, a top ten hwt contender is in the other corner. The exhibition would never come off as it did not come off with Dempsey. Again this is very well known and understood aside from those pushing the race card.
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Old 11-20-2018, 07:34 PM #124
HOUDINI563 HOUDINI563 is offline
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Again the color line and Dempsey’s history with the color line is very well known and understood. You cherry picking dates and not explaining the reasons behind Dempsey’s statements tell me you are more interested in pushing the race card than understanding or perhaps revealing the true history.
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Old 11-20-2018, 07:47 PM #125
HOUDINI563 HOUDINI563 is offline
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Wonderful synopsis of the history of the potential Dempsey Wills fight. Note that there are many nuances to any history/historic event. It is very easy for someone to cherry pick specific points in time to deceive. The full history reveals the problems of making the fight and ultimately why it was never made.

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Old 11-20-2018, 11:38 PM #126
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Originally Posted by HOUDINI563 View Post
Wonderful synopsis of the history of the potential Dempsey Wills fight. Note that there are many nuances to any history/historic event. It is very easy for someone to cherry pick specific points in time to deceive. The full history reveals the problems of making the fight and ultimately why it was never made.

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That was pretty good.
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Old 11-21-2018, 12:27 AM #127
Joe Beamish Joe Beamish is offline
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The point is that Dempsey didn’t fight black fighters. The reasons why he didn’t fight them are irrelevant to his legacy. His competition was lacking. Marciano defeated better guys than Dempsey did. Way better.
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Old 11-21-2018, 08:03 AM #128
HOUDINI563 HOUDINI563 is offline
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No one argues Marciano’s competition was “better”. Rocky’s best competition were over the hill physically.

Dempsey’s first round KO of Fred Fulton can be argued as the best single win by any future hwt champion. Add to this Brennan, Gibbons and a prime Sharkey. All very highly thought of at that time.
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Old 11-21-2018, 10:44 AM #129
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No one argues Marciano’s competition was “better”. Rocky’s best competition were over the hill physically.

Dempsey’s first round KO of Fred Fulton can be argued as the best single win by any future hwt champion. Add to this Brennan, Gibbons and a prime Sharkey. All very highly thought of at that time.
Forgive me, this seems like propaganda at best.

No one brags about Marciano stopping Kid Mathews nearly 60 fight win streak just because Kid was highly rated.

Kid doesn't qualify as over the hill in any regard. So why is it you elected to focus on the old guard in Marciano's era and claim every top fighter he beat prior to fighting the champ, former champ, former former champ, European champ, LWH champ, and British champ doesn't qualify as a resume win but all it takes to be a resume win for Dempsey is being a top ranked or well thought of boxer during his time?

Kid Mathews was a title elim. He was highly rated. Lee was rank like number 2 in 1950-1. Rex was a top ten when Marciano busted him up. I doubt you need told about Roland's popularity and what folks thought of him.

Rex Layen, Harry Mathews, and Roland LaStarza are Marciano's highly rated peer group wins and you nor anyone else is giving him any credit for them but Dempsey gets credit for his " very highly thought of at that time. " wins? Give me a break.

Also, Ezzard Charles is a peer. The most you can say is he had a lot of experience on Marciano, they are the same generation. In most cases it's considered a good thing. No one is saying Wilder has had twice the career as Joshua so he is too old for it to be a good win....but we must take from the one man who never suffered a loss, nitpick and criticize anything that fits and pretend like we're not being one sided propagandist and take this same approach with all champions while posting glaring inconsistencies.

Forgiving all of Dempsey's draws and losses is one thing. Pretending like his wins are better than Marciano's because they were well thought of is just absolute bull****. Marciano stopped a peer on a tear as well. No one brags about it but when it's Jack who does it then it's braggable is it? Marciano stopped a peer of a tear post colorline when everyone in boxing had a shot to be that contender.

Dempsey refused to fight the colored champion. Brennan lost to the colored champion in the first round shortly after Jack beat him. Jack didn't even clear his division by triangle theory let alone actually doing it.

I feel you're doing a whole lot of forgiving Jack while hold Rock's toes to a fire no one else in the history of boxing is held to.
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:19 AM #130
HOUDINI563 HOUDINI563 is offline
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Again...no one argues Marciano’s competition was “better”. His competition historically has been determined as “weak”. My post specifically was to address the comment that Dempsey’s competition was weak. Beating in spectacular fashion prime Jack Sharkey and Fred Fulton are prime examples. Fulton being potentially the greatest single win by any future hwt champion.
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