The "Phantom Punch."

[billeau2]

It’s hard to determine truth many times by reading a book. All writers want to make $ and the way to make $ is finding some new angle no matter how little evidence there is to write about.

The hundreds of books written about the Kennedy assassination is the No 1 example of this. A multi billion $ business where everyone wanted a piece of the pie.

have you ever written a book? have you ever written professionally? Do you know how it works with peer review, with people picking apart your assertions, etc?

I have written professionally. If one cannot look at a book, at research done by individuals who look through source material then tell me WHAT SOURCE OF INFORMATION SHOULD PEOPLE BE LOOKING AT!?

The internet? People who pull rank?

[HOUDINI563]

I have a very well rounded education.

Again all you need to do is look at the multitude of books written concerning the Kennedy assassination. Each author finding an angle to present an interesting slant to sell his or her book. I’m not saying they make angles up but they certainly do ignore points that hurt the angle they chose and elaborate upon the points that push the agenda. It’s done all the time in every genre. The far right such as Hannity (as only one example) will write a book that includes only right wing talking points presenting only one side of a complex puzzle? Is he lying? In my estimation yes since presenting only one side of an argument and purposefully ignoring the other is indeed being untruthful.

So again books are written all the time where authors reach for the stars, they would call it being clever, in order to write a “story” marketable to a base that will purchase the idea. It does not mean the event being written about is a fairly discussed consideration of ALL relavant points.

[HOUDINI563]

So with Ali-Liston 1 some have pushed the mafia influence angle, others the idea Liston tanked out of fear of being shot by those who assassinated Malcolm X. Typically these articles or books don’t delve deeply into the physical evidence. Ali did land a jolting right that one can see contorted his head upon impact, many experts who actually saw the punch land called it a KO blow (read the SI article right after the bout), Listons trainers stated Liston alone in his dressing room with no outsiders present to try to “impress” asked for smelling salts which they say he never asked before, Liston with people milling into the ring after the fight was stopped stutter stepping, staggering, while walking in the ring. There was also a formal investigation of this bout and nothing was found to indicate a fix. Finally there have been detailed frame by frame film analysis of the KO which concluded more than likely a KO blow was the reason for the fights ending.

[HOUDINI563]

Another historic fight that through the years has been twisted into something it originally was not is the Dempsey Sharkey fight. The storyline today is that Dempsey hit Sharkey in the balls to allow him victory. Could not be further from the truth. If you read ALL the written info regarding this bout the conclusion was far different.

First you will find headlines days after the bout :

“Film of fight show body blows were legal”

Secondly the ref stated emphatically that the three body blows in question were NOT LOW but fairly on the belt line. What some get confused by is another statement by the ref that Dempsey did land a punch low, to Sharkey thigh, PRIOR to the three body blows in question. This punch was termed by the ref as unintentional.

Third that an examination by the fight doctor found no signs of a low blow on Sharkey groin.

Forth was the refs statement that BOTH fighters were hitting low but not intentionally and that Sharkey nor his corner complained of low blows prior to fights end.

[Joe Beamish]

Again...those at ringside who actually saw the punch land including experts Damato, Patterson and Torres as well as the SI writer saw a KO blow.

Not Marciano, Dempsey and these guys (all ringside.) I think they might know something about punches.

https://youtu.be/wuLWvYRpVR4

(Not sure why video doesn’t post directly)

[HOUDINI563]

Read the SI article. Those sitting where the SI reporter was sitting were in position to see the punch clearly. The writer states those at ringside did not see a fix. They saw a legitimate KO blow.

[HOUDINI563]

Actually if you listen to what both men say:

Dempsey was non commital.

Marciano acknowledged the punch could have had power as Ali put his weight into the blow the last six inches.

Ali knocked down/out numerous opponents during his first reign by catching them with this exact punch timing it perfectly as they stepped in magnifying its effect.

[QueensburyRules]

--- Ali didn't have StepinFetchit in 6 training camps, just Liston II.

He credits Step for the anchor punch labeled phantom because it was quick in Ali's off balance moment moving backwards after making lunging Liston off balance, an awkward set of circumstances.

The resulting officiating incompetence after is what KOed the off balance Liston. Shoulda been Ali DQed for tussling with Walcott instead of going to neutral corner. Thus Ali seldom respected the neutral corner rule that also played a role in the bonavena ko.

Time to study up!

[Joe Beamish]

Actually if you listen to what both men say:

Dempsey was non commital.

Marciano acknowledged the punch could have had power as Ali put his weight into the blow the last six inches.

Ali knocked down/out numerous opponents during his first reign by catching them with this exact punch timing it perfectly as they stepped in magnifying its effect.

Both fighters very clearly doubted the KO power of the punch and qualified their view with politeness.

[Anthony342]

It was a legit KO blow, but Liston still elected not to get up once he was knocked down. You can see him looking for the ref Walcott and when he doesn't see him, finally deciding to get up.