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Old 07-05-2018, 10:16 AM #121
Theodore Theodore is offline
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I'm sorry but its hard to have compassion for people like you that have dealt with affirmative action for a few years and have decided it is "discrimination" while ignoring the hundred years of systemic racism because it allowed you to have an advantage.

How do we take away that advantage?

SYSTEMIC RACISM. Ah, the go to crutch.

You have quotas, preferences, Fortune 500 Companies that wants that Black face for PR purposes and lowering of standards, not to mentioned you have a black face for every level of government that included the presidency. Yeah, systemic racism. Not buying it.

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1. They get to choose a university in Texas correct? How does that help address the disparity created by years of systemic racism when it comes to admission into colleges across the United States? We need a system that addresses the fact that white males in colleges more than double white males in society. How can that be done without in some ways limiting access to white males?
The Systemic Racism crutch again. This ain't the Jim Crow era, it ended in 1964 when LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act. And in 1963 JFK implemented Affirmative Action. So what if there are more white males in college than in society? Hell, Asians both male and female are over-represented in college compared to their 5% US population. And you know what? I don't care. But it seems like you have a problem with certain groups like white males in college are more than double white males in society.

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2. Doesn't address the core problem.
Maybe it doesn't, but socio-economic status affirmative action is fair to everyone. The core problem is within the Black community, only they can fix it, no other group or program can fix it.

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3. School choice is fraught with problems. It doesn't address the affect of the years of systemic racism has had on schools and the kids in them. Privatized school choice will inevitably reduce funding for your local neighborhood public schools. Direct and disguised vouchers to private schools and other public school alternatives start small and then expand, increasing the burden on taxpayers. What about the lack of transparency and the potential waste to taxpayer dollars ?
It's a better alternative than the status quo. A few weeks back I posted an article stating that two-thirds of public 8th grade students are not proficient in reading and math. Time to try something else. And school choice is rapidly gaining steam among the populace.

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4. We agree, eliminate legacies. These are the kids taking your spots, not minorities.
Affirmative Action minorities are taking spots from more qualified individuals, it's not just the legacy brats. Both are bad and both needs to be eliminated. CalTech, one of the great universities in America and the world has eliminated both for years now and goes strictly on test scores and GPA. All universities should be like that. The most qualified individual is allowed to get in.

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You keep avoiding the main issue I presented-how do you rectify the years of racism that blocked qualified minorities from being admitted?
Jim Crow ended decades ago. More than 50 years, even then, it was the South, not all of the USA had Jim Crow.
If the black community wants more blacks in universities, look inward. Look at your culture and self expectations. No one but the black community can rectify that problem.

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Minorities are not taking your spots because of affirmative action, white women and the children of the rich are.
Affirmative Action admits takes the spot of a more qualified individual. I don't like affirmative action used, even if white women benefited from it. And legacy admits and rich kids? I also don't like that they get a hand up. It should be a strict merit system.
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:52 AM #122
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Originally Posted by Theodore View Post
SYSTEMIC RACISM. Ah, the go to crutch.

You have quotas, preferences, Fortune 500 Companies that wants that Black face for PR purposes and lowering of standards, not to mentioned you have a black face for every level of government that included the presidency. Yeah, systemic racism. Not buying it.



The Systemic Racism crutch again. This ain't the Jim Crow era, it ended in 1964 when LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act. And in 1963 JFK implemented Affirmative Action. So what if there are more white males in college than in society? Hell, Asians both male and female are over-represented in college compared to their 5% US population. And you know what? I don't care. But it seems like you have a problem with certain groups like white males in college are more than double white males in society.



Maybe it doesn't, but socio-economic status affirmative action is fair to everyone. The core problem is within the Black community, only they can fix it, no other group or program can fix it.



It's a better alternative than the status quo. A few weeks back I posted an article stating that two-thirds of public 8th grade students are not proficient in reading and math. Time to try something else. And school choice is rapidly gaining steam among the populace.



Affirmative Action minorities are taking spots from more qualified individuals, it's not just the legacy brats. Both are bad and both needs to be eliminated. CalTech, one of the great universities in America and the world has eliminated both for years now and goes strictly on test scores and GPA. All universities should be like that. The most qualified individual is allowed to get in.



Jim Crow ended decades ago. More than 50 years, even then, it was the South, not all of the USA had Jim Crow.
If the black community wants more blacks in universities, look inward. Look at your culture and self expectations. No one but the black community can rectify that problem.



Affirmative Action admits takes the spot of a more qualified individual. I don't like affirmative action used, even if white women benefited from it. And legacy admits and rich kids? I also don't like that they get a hand up. It should be a strict merit system.
1. Of course, you doubt the existence of systemic racism over the years. Just because Obama got elected doesn't mean there hasn't been systemic racism in the US going back decades nor does it mean its been removed. All the things you mentioned were put in place specifically because systemic racism existed.

If you can't admit the problem existed, still exists, and there are long term affects from the past then that is all I really need to know about you.

You didn't answer-that is Texas specific correct?

Wow so a policy implemented means racism ends. hahahaha sure. Yes, I do have a problem because that is a statistical impossibility, same as black men being such a small part of the population and such a large part of the prison system.

The numbers indicate a flaw in the system.

2. Yes, that is fairer to everyone but it doesn't fix the problems of the past. The core problem exists in part because of the affects of years of systemic racism, you just will not admit that.

Simple example-kids of college graduates are more likely to go to and graduate college. That means that all those years of minorities being denied admission and not going to college had an affect on their kids and their kids, on down the line. So you can pretend there was no generational affect if you wish, but we all know why you are.

3. No its not. School choice is about destroying public schools. The people spearheading this can afford not to send their kids to public school anyway. Besides, you really think school choice is going to create equal schools across the board?

4. You already know affirmative action has benefited white women more than minorities. So its your sister or niece being chosen instead of you. how can you just overlook the 20%? Those are the spots that should be open for all to compete.

I mentioned Cal tech admission policy just not by name. I am fine with that because its all merit based.

I'm not suggesting you not get admitted. I am saying stop letting unqualified people take your spot. But if we keep letting in unqualified whites because of "legacy" then lets let in unqualified people across the board.

Yes you've said that and I do not disagree in principle. For you to deny that systemic racism has created the generational issues that are a barrier is disingenuous.

5. Not always is a spot taken from a more qualified individual. This goes back to my point about disproportionate numbers of white males. You post as if all the white men admitted to colleges in the US have always been qualified and admissions have always been fair.

You know this isn't the case. For years unqualified white males have been granted admission while qualified minorities and women have not been. Many of the white men not getting admitted now simply didn't deserve to be admitted because they didn't truly earn it.

You and others like you have the mentality that college acceptance was always merit based when it was systemic racism that allowed universities to give white men got spots non whites were more qualified for.

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Old 07-05-2018, 10:57 AM #123
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1. They get to choose a university in Texas correct? How does that help address the disparity created by years of systemic racism when it comes to admission into colleges across the United States? We need a system that addresses the fact that white males in colleges more than double white males in society. How can that be done without in some ways limiting access to white males?

2. Doesn't address the core problem.

3. School choice is fraught with problems. It doesn't address the affect of the years of systemic racism has had on schools and the kids in them. Privatized school choice will inevitably reduce funding for your local neighborhood public schools. Direct and disguised vouchers to private schools and other public school alternatives start small and then expand, increasing the burden on taxpayers. What about the lack of transparency and the potential waste to taxpayer dollars ?

4. We agree, eliminate legacies. These are the kids taking your spots, not minorities.

You keep avoiding the main issue I presented-how do you rectify the years of racism that blocked qualified minorities from being admitted?

Minorities are not taking your spots because of affirmative action, white women and the children of the rich are.

I'm sorry but its hard to have compassion for people like you that have dealt with affirmative action for a few years and have decided it is "discrimination" while ignoring the hundred years of systemic racism because it allowed you to have an advantage.

How do we take away that advantage?
Let me get this straight. You want to reverse systematic racism with another systematic racism that will never allow minorities to look smart enough or deserving enough to do it on their own merit?

Thats exactly what Afirmative Action does when it "gives" you grades based on race. You are playing right into white supremacist's hands when you accept their adjusted grading scales, etc ---:"given" that C or B-grade for basically not even trying.
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Old 07-05-2018, 11:02 AM #124
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Let me get this straight. You want to reverse systematic racism with another systematic racism that will never allow minorities to look smart enough or deserving enough to do it on their own merit?

Thats exactly what Afirmative Action does when it "gives" you grades based on race. You are playing right into white supremacist's hands when you accept their adjusted grading scales, etc ---:"given" that C or B-grade for basically not even trying.
Affirmative action does no such thing. WTF?? No one should get a grade because they are any color or gender.

Minorities look smart enough? White people assuming minorities getting into college and advanced degree programs because they are minorities and not smart enough has nothing to do with affirmative action. They thought like that long before affirmative action.

I don't know where you got such a distorted view of affirmative action programs. Frankly, its that kind of false narrative that plays into the hands of white supremacists far more than actual programs do.
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Old 07-05-2018, 11:14 AM #125
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Seriously guys who is really taking your spots in colleges and universities?

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John Barron see this article relative to the lawsuit brought by Asian students. Article talks about Asain students in ivy league having admissions slowed because it was found that white enrollment declined as Asian enrollment increased.

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Even after decades of affirmative action, black and Hispanic students are more underrepresented at the nationís top colleges and universities than they were 35 years ago, according to a New York Times analysis.

Affirmative action increases the numbers of black and Hispanic students at many colleges and universities, but experts say that persistent underrepresentation often stems from equity issues that begin earlier.
I know the diehard Trumpers want to pretend otherwise but even with AA programs minority groups are not the problem.

It seems a lot of you believe "my spot is being taken by one of the 9% of black students or 8% of hispanic students in the student body."

In reality the spot likely went to one of the legacies that make up a staggering 20% (on average) of admissions, who wouldn't have gotten in if they weren't legacies or a white female

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Old 07-05-2018, 11:30 AM #126
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SYSTEMIC RACISM. Ah, the go to crutch.
Exactly.

As far as I'm concerned, as long as people like the Big Dunning-Kruger use that excuse to justify failure, the black community will always be at the bottom in terms of unemployment, wages, high school graduation rates, crime, and child illegitimacy rates, among others.

Only when they quit making excuses, like other groups previously discriminated against in America like Asians, Jews, Irish, and Italians did will they move themselves forward.

But for as long as they blame long-past wrongs for their failures in today's world, they will live in squalor and see no upwards mobility.
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Old 07-05-2018, 11:54 AM #127
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Exactly.

As far as I'm concerned, as long as people like the Big Dunning-Kruger use that excuse to justify failure, the black community will always be at the bottom in terms of unemployment, wages, high school graduation rates, crime, and child illegitimacy rates, among others.

Only when they quit making excuses, like other groups previously discriminated against in America like Asians, Jews, Irish, and Italians did will they move themselves forward.

But for as long as they blame long-past wrongs for their failures in today's world, they will live in squalor and see no upwards mobility.
We are talking admission rates at colleges and universities. One hasn't "failed" if they successfully meet the criteria for admission and are denied admission because of skin color.

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Old 07-05-2018, 02:58 PM #128
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Affirmative action does no such thing. WTF?? No one should get a grade because they are any color or gender.

Minorities look smart enough? White people assuming minorities getting into college and advanced degree programs because they are minorities and not smart enough has nothing to do with affirmative action. They thought like that long before affirmative action.

I don't know where you got such a distorted view of affirmative action programs. Frankly, its that kind of false narrative that plays into the hands of white supremacists far more than actual programs do.
The ignorance of the rampant Grade Inflation with decreasing math, reading, science, etc abilities must really be bliss. In the mean time, teachers who fail to abide lose their jobs

False narrative ? I say screw the entry criteria and let everyone have a chance. If they cant make it, go to trade school, cut grass, etc
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Old 07-05-2018, 04:09 PM #129
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Well the saying is fight fire with fire. If you can come up with a better solution, I’m all ears.

I don’t necessarily think lowering admission for those who were already unqualified is racism and discrimination. Racism is what got a significant percentage admitted for decades. They didn’t deserve to get admitted. Those are the people that should be getting eliminated.

Instead of complaining about people of color being given access, I think the focus needs to be on those still not qualified taking spots from those that are.

It’s the legacies and children of the rich and influential that are taking spots from regular white kids. It’s really white on white crime but it’s been made to appear like minority kids are taking spots from regular white kids.

No one really wants to address that so until they do then yes, I want a system where qualified minority applicants are not continually denied access. If that is equated to “racism and discrimination “so be it. As I posted it’s imperfect but imo it’s a better system than the racist one it replaced. Do you agree?
Actually no. I believe we should go back to the days of black enslavement.

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Old 07-05-2018, 04:24 PM #130
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Originally Posted by BM dnobagaV View Post
Actually no. I believe we should go back to the days of black enslavement.

Them gud 'ol Days! Dixie Dixie!

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I doubt that but I think you get where I am coming from.

AA isn't perfect but it forces people in that for years weren't getting admitted even though they were qualified. Not only do qualified people get an opportunity, but some non qualified as well.

Doesn't right every wrong but it does make it even in the sense that unqualified people from all races get admitted, not just non qualified whites.
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