creatine monohydrate vs creatine hydrochloride

[mspiegelo]

most studies on creatine have looked at creatine monohydrate, and there is very little to NO data out there on creatine hydrochloride, yet these gnc reps push the hydrochloride hard. supposedly same benefits without water retention. sounds slightly shady since the research doesn't seem to be there. most supporters on various forums are just guys who regergitate what their sales rep told them without any real evidence. please give your two cents if you have an opinion on the matter, or any links to research-based articles. thanks!

[Spiegelo]

most studies on creatine have looked at creatine monohydrate, and there is very little to no data out there on creatine hydrochloride, yet these gnc reps push the hydrochloride hard. Supposedly same benefits without water retention. Sounds slightly shady since the research doesn't seem to be there. Most supporters on various forums are just guys who regergitate what their sales rep told them without any real evidence. Please give your two cents if you have an opinion on the matter, or any links to research-based articles. Thanks!

YOYOYOYO son! Dat **** tastes LIKE CANDY!

[TrainingTrainer]

I’m more of a biomechanist than a physiologist but I found some literature on the subject, I posted the reference along with the abstract below, as I understand it, they also have a creatine ethyl ester hydrochloride marketed, I’m not sure if it’s the same thing:

Spillane, M (2009).The effects of creatine ethyl ester supplementation
combined with heavy resistance training on body
composition, muscle performance, and serum and muscle
creatine levels.. Journal of the International Society of
Sports Nutrition. 6, [Electronic Version].

ABSTRACT: Numerous creatine formulations have been developed primarily to maximize creatine absorption. Creatine ethyl ester is alleged to increase creatine bio-availability. This study examined how a seven-week supplementation regimen combined with resistance training affected body composition, muscle mass, muscle strength and power, serum and muscle creatine levels, and serum creatinine levels in 30 non-resistance-trained males. In a double-blind manner, participants were randomly assigned to a maltodextrose placebo (PLA), creatine monohydrate (CRT), or creatine ethyl ester (CEE) group. The supplements were orally ingested at a dose of 0.30 g/kg fat-free body mass (approximately 20 g/day) for five days followed by ingestion at 0.075 g/kg fat free mass (approximately 5 g/day) for 42 days. Results showed significantly higher serum creatine concentrations in PLA (p = 0.007) and CRT (p = 0.005) compared to CEE. Serum creatinine was greater in CEE compared to the PLA (p = 0.001) and CRT (p = 0.001) and increased at days 6, 27, and 48. Total muscle creatine content was significantly higher in CRT (p = 0.026) and CEE (p = 0.041) compared to PLA, with no differences between CRT and CEE. Significant changes over time were observed for body composition, body water, muscle strength and power variables, but no significant differences were observed between groups. In conclusion, when compared to creatine monohydrate, creatine ethyl ester was not as effective at increasing serum and muscle creatine levels or in improving body composition, muscle mass, strength, and power. Therefore, the improvements in these variables can most likely be attributed to the training protocol itself, rather than the supplementation regimen.

I couldn’t really find any peer-reviewed original research on creatine hydrochloride but my 2c is to be wary. Any company that sells a product is going to tell you anything to get you to buy that product, even if it includes bad science. I’m definitely no expert on this but ask yourself if it’s going to improve your ability to be a boxer or just to hypertrophy muscle while you’re lifting weights in the gym (which certainly does not guarantee that you’ll be a better boxer).

Basically, there’s always somebody trying to sell you a product and they’re going to say anything to sell you that product. I know it’s off topic but in my own area of the back I can go and google spinal therapy products and they give these super explanations about how they’re going to work for you and relieve your low back pain, but they all end up boiling down to three categories; either they will work, but you could have achieved the same result without the product, they won’t work and you’ll be back to square one, or they’ll make things worse and ensure that I have lots of clients for when I go into clinical practice in a few months.

Back on topic; I personally wouldn’t listen to any GNC rep when they try to push that product on me, I would probably ask them to provide me with a clinical study confirming the efficacy of the supplement as well as a detailed mechanism of the membrane channels it passes through that make its uptake more rapid. Just try not to laugh when the guy looks at you with a blank expression on his face.

[Danny Gunz]

was that last post in English?

[TrainingTrainer]

was that last post in English?

lol, long story short:

when compared to creatine monohydrate, creatine ethyl ester was not as effective at increasing serum and muscle creatine levels or in improving body composition, muscle mass, strength, and power. Therefore, the improvements in these variables can most likely be attributed to the training protocol itself, rather than the supplementation regimen.

Like I said in the first post, I'm not sure if this is exactly the same product as referred to in the original post, but I really couldn't find anything reputable on creatine hydrochloride.

[elfag]

Back on topic; I personally wouldn’t listen to any GNC rep when they try to push that product on me,

Those GNC dudes drive me nuts, they try to sell you anything and everything. I used to go there for whey before I bought online. Dude at the one was stereotypical in love with himself wanna be bodybuilder with a fake orange tan and bleached teeth, he was like a smaller younger version of Ric Flair. Im buying a small pouch of whey cause I wanted to try out a new flavor before I buy 5lbs to make sure I like it and hes trying to sell me 5-10lbs of it and gold club memberships or whatever the hell. I tell them a million times that 5lbs will probably last me a year at the rate I use it but they dont give up."oh but you can save so much money" lol

[mspiegelo]

I’m more of a biomechanist than a physiologist but I found some literature on the subject, I posted the reference along with the abstract below, as I understand it, they also have a creatine ethyl ester hydrochloride marketed, I’m not sure if it’s the same thing:

Spillane, M (2009).The effects of creatine ethyl ester supplementation
combined with heavy resistance training on body
composition, muscle performance, and serum and muscle
creatine levels.. Journal of the International Society of
Sports Nutrition. 6, [Electronic Version].




I couldn’t really find any peer-reviewed original research on creatine hydrochloride but my 2c is to be wary. Any company that sells a product is going to tell you anything to get you to buy that product, even if it includes bad science. I’m definitely no expert on this but ask yourself if it’s going to improve your ability to be a boxer or just to hypertrophy muscle while you’re lifting weights in the gym (which certainly does not guarantee that you’ll be a better boxer).

Basically, there’s always somebody trying to sell you a product and they’re going to say anything to sell you that product. I know it’s off topic but in my own area of the back I can go and google spinal therapy products and they give these super explanations about how they’re going to work for you and relieve your low back pain, but they all end up boiling down to three categories; either they will work, but you could have achieved the same result without the product, they won’t work and you’ll be back to square one, or they’ll make things worse and ensure that I have lots of clients for when I go into clinical practice in a few months.

Back on topic; I personally wouldn’t listen to any GNC rep when they try to push that product on me, I would probably ask them to provide me with a clinical study confirming the efficacy of the supplement as well as a detailed mechanism of the membrane channels it passes through that make its uptake more rapid. Just try not to laugh when the guy looks at you with a blank expression on his face.

very cool. thanks a lot for the info! actually, i am a cscs, so i am programming my own training with the nsca undulating periodization in mind. it doesn't correlate exactly to boxing, since there are no seasons per se, like football or baseball, but if i had to use nsca terminology, i guess i would say i am currently in an off-season, hypertrophy phase. i dont have a fight for a while, though i am still doing sport-specific training as well with my trainer, of course, from mitts, and bagwork to sparring.

after i put on a little size, i will cut it back with a true strength training (closer to 85% loads of one rep maxes) for 5 reps, 5 sets, mixed with increased cardio and anaerobic conditioning. finally, i will cycle back to power and plyos. currently, i am looking to maximize my strength potential, not put on bloated creatine muscles, so i will be very careful not to overload. i will basically adhere to the standard nsca information about effective usage amounts and the proper g of creatine: kg of bodyweight ratios. boxing would also benefit from increased phosphocreatine stores, im sure, since you are dealing with explosive movements.

the creatine ethyl ester is the same as the hydrochloride. many brands have both "ethyl ester" and "hydrochloride" in the names. my main concern was what was more effective - monohydrate or hydrochloride. i was leaning towards monohydrate (on which most of the research has been done) and now my suspicions have been reinforced. thanks a lot!

[mmrooms]

boxing would also benefit from increased phosphocreatine stores, im sure, since you are dealing with explosive movements.

I always read that phosphocreatine isn't useful in explosive movement, since the enzyme creatine kinase is too slow, but is useful if the movement is repeated with effort on a longer period of time.... am I wrong?

[mspiegelo]

I always read that phosphocreatine isn't useful in explosive movement, since the enzyme creatine kinase is too slow, but is useful if the movement is repeated with effort on a longer period of time.... am I wrong?

hey. thanks for the question. creatine phosphate is the first energy supply used by the body in exercise, in the phosphagen cycle. It is indeed recruited for explosive movements. for example, creatine phosphate stores are depleted 50-70% during the first stage of high intensty, anaerobic training (5-30seconds)and can be completely depleted if worked til exhaustation in anaerobic training (under three minutes). depletion of phosphagens in a muscle is more of a factor in muscle fatigue than the depletion of atp, since muscular ATP stores do not deplete past 60% from initial stores, even at the highest intensity of exercise. All of this informtion is available in the NSCA texts. If you are thinking of explosive movement in terms of even shorter durations, like a 1 rep max of a power clean, or a roy jones-esque leaping left hook, again creatine levels would be depleted somewhat as well...

[mspiegelo]

anyone have experiences with creatine loading? nsca suggests 20-25 grams for 5 days followed by 5g/day maintenance doses to maintain creatine levels. your thoughts?