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View Poll Results: who wins in their prime?
george foreman 18 62.07%
larry holmes 11 37.93%
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Old 11-14-2019, 11:17 PM #51
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Originally Posted by them_apples View Post
Yes.

But you have to take into context when certain fights are taking place. Like "losing to Ali and Young" are 2 completely different things.

When Foreman Fought Ali he's coming off 2 brutal stoppages over high ranked fighters that both beat Ali, Ali is "considered" to be leaving his prime and most think he's going to get killed.

When Foreman fights young everyone is saying his gas tank is low, he's slow, if you survive the first 5 he's easy picking. Post Ali George, Although physically prime - mentally was finished - which ultimately lead to him retiring. He came back with possibly the best mental game ever that he likely learned from Ali, but by this his physical had left him. You can literally see the change of styles that Foreman exhibited between the 2 fights, he fought like old george in a young mans body after Ali.


So that being said, What Ali did to break George down was way more than just quick hands, he had to endure a lot of pain to do it, and had to really get into Foremans head, talk **** while hitting him every time George hit him. Heart is a huge factor in boxing, and prime Larry vs 1974 George is not the same as 1976 Foreman vs Prime Holmes.

Holmes isn't gonna pull the rope a dope and **** talk while fighting back through a barrage of disrespecting bad intentions bombs, no - he's gonna box and move because he knows what happened to Frazier and Norton. Foremans gonna walk through Larry's punches like he walked through Ali's (that is until Ali mentally broke him) and then Larry is gonna wilt. he's gonna go in a 5 to 1 under dog and the press is gonna say he hasn't a chance, and Foreman is gonna make a beline for him like he's some journeyman scrub. Thats the difference between 2 years.

Had Ali not beat Liston years prior, I don't think he could have pulled off the Foreman win. This is what gave him the psychological edge.
very interesting.

1) Liston was shot. Everyone knew that. Even then Ali JUST barely escaped him. Really, he was as bad a match-up for old Liston as Liston was for Patterson. Karma.

2) You're writing off Young. He was very good - almost great. He just came of age when you had to be stellar.

Young held it together. Larry would hold it together even better. He also would hit back harder than Ali. He lacked Ali's strength and speed, but his arsenal was more impressive. He didn't have as many holes, either.

Really, too many excuses are made for Foreman. Clancy, did say George was mentally broken. But he kinda revealed how easy it was to break George. Foreman always seemed to struggled with slippery opponents (peralta). It's likely even if he beats Holmes once, they'd meat again and Holmes would pull it out.

Shavers and Cooney weren't Foreman, but Holmes clearly showed his whiskers and ability to drag big punchers into deep waters. So while I concede he'll pay a greater price than Ali and Young, he too - eventually - gets his hand raised as they did.
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Old 11-14-2019, 11:39 PM #52
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Originally Posted by Rusty Tromboni View Post
very interesting.

1) Liston was shot. Everyone knew that. Even then Ali JUST barely escaped him. Really, he was as bad a match-up for old Liston

Young held it together. Larry would hold it together even better. He also would hit back harder than Ali. He lacked Ali's strength and speed, but his arsenal was more impressive. He didn't have as many holes, either.

Really, too many excuses are made for Foreman. Clancy, did say George was mentally broken. But he kinda revealed how easy it was to break George. Foreman always seemed to struggled with slippery opponents (peralta). It's likely even if he beats Holmes once, they'd meat again and Holmes would pull it out.

Shavers and Cooney weren't Foreman, but Holmes clearly showed his whiskers and ability to drag big punchers into deep waters. So while I concede he'll pay a greater price than Ali and Young, he too - eventually - gets his hand raised as they did.
- -Rustysan, you're becoming rotten as we speak.

Here's the best ever that Lar who was still skinny then fought on the under-under-undercard when George and Young scrapped.

[Link View Has Been Removed. Click Here To Unlock This Content.]

Edit:/\ The above not what I copied which is much worse:
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Words and records tend to fail with you, but there it is with you and Lar revealed in all your naked doltary.

Last edited by QueensburyRules; 11-14-2019 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 11-16-2019, 07:32 PM #53
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Originally Posted by Rusty Tromboni View Post
very interesting.

1) Liston was shot. Everyone knew that. Even then Ali JUST barely escaped him. Really, he was as bad a match-up for old Liston as Liston was for Patterson. Karma.

2) You're writing off Young. He was very good - almost great. He just came of age when you had to be stellar.

Young held it together. Larry would hold it together even better. He also would hit back harder than Ali. He lacked Ali's strength and speed, but his arsenal was more impressive. He didn't have as many holes, either.

Really, too many excuses are made for Foreman. Clancy, did say George was mentally broken. But he kinda revealed how easy it was to break George. Foreman always seemed to struggled with slippery opponents (peralta). It's likely even if he beats Holmes once, they'd meat again and Holmes would pull it out.

Shavers and Cooney weren't Foreman, but Holmes clearly showed his whiskers and ability to drag big punchers into deep waters. So while I concede he'll pay a greater price than Ali and Young, he too - eventually - gets his hand raised as they did.

I never said Larry is gonna get whiped out, I fully agree that Holmes is an ATG hw. He can mix it up with anyone, his chin is good, his speed, heart, skills etc - I just don't think he's better than prime Foreman.

Does Larry hit harder than Ali? likely a little bit, because he tended to load up a bit more. However, Larry doesn't sit anywhere near the hardest hitters George has faced, and I wouldn't consider Ali a light hitter WHEN he decided to hit someone hard.

Holmes was more fundamentally sound than Ali, but he was also like I said, less crafty - a little bit of a windup toy and like YOU said, he wasn't as strong.

I don't think Holmes jab is better than Ali's. It's better than Ali's for about 2 rounds, because he comes out hot and puts a lot on that jab in an effort to say his jabs better than Ali's. However, because he is trying too hard with that jab, you can kinda see it coming after adjusting which is why that jab usually got taken away by good fighters and maybe made an appearance again in later rounds because his opponent forgets he had it. Ali never had this problem because he understood the wonderful craft of being subtle. There was no give away on Ali's jab, just pop - a glove to the face and you can't do anything about it, and if you try - the right hand is coming to bother you not a second later. With Holmes, sure the jab is coming real fast, but so is that shoulder, hips and torso all the little extra things Holmes did to make that Jab come out fast - and thats a lot of green lights and not really a sign of someone who has mastered his craft.

The old masters used to say, never waste energy hitting a man with your hardest shot if he is prepared to take it.

If you compare Ali to Holmes, Ali is fighting at 60 percent 90 percent of the time, and only in pockets is he really exerting real effort - when it really matters, like teeing off on George in round 7 or when he takes a breather.

If you look at Holmes, he's just thinking FAST, I gotta be fast and he comes out and has success for a bit, then the fight get's ugly a few rounds in because he's not really being clever - he's just athletically fast and it takes his opponent a few rounds to adjust. Foreman in 74 is an ATG level HW, Holmes isn't gonna have more than 2 rounds looking sharp against Foreman before he catches something big and the fight goes in a different direction.

Is Young a good fighter? yeah I know he was. He he's not great, and even George nearly put him away in that "boxing" match. Young showed he had heart and some degree of skill.

Last edited by them_apples; 11-16-2019 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 11-16-2019, 08:30 PM #54
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Originally Posted by Brassangel View Post
Wow, that was a load of stupid.

Anyway, Holmes was a better boxer than Foreman. There's a lot more to it than stating who they faced. George Foreman's mummy style was always going to be weak against someone who could move swiftly. Holmes had the privelage of being Ali's sparring partner for a number of years and you're going to talk about who they faced?! Just being able to clobber people doesn't guarantee a win (see: Mike Tyson's wasted career). Holmes would wear out Foreman's body and his heart. Plus, if an old Ali could do it in 8....
I'm not saying Foreman would win but I will say Foreman had plenty of heart.
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Old 11-16-2019, 08:41 PM #55
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Originally Posted by Brassangel View Post
Wow, that was a load of stupid.

Anyway, Holmes was a better boxer than Foreman. There's a lot more to it than stating who they faced. George Foreman's mummy style was always going to be weak against someone who could move swiftly. Holmes had the privelage of being Ali's sparring partner for a number of years and you're going to talk about who they faced?! Just being able to clobber people doesn't guarantee a win (see: Mike Tyson's wasted career). Holmes would wear out Foreman's body and his heart. Plus, if an old Ali could do it in 8....
what do you mean the "mummy style" that **** didn't even show up until after Ali beat him. he fought a lot like Sandy Saddler up until then.
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Old 11-17-2019, 02:17 PM #56
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he fought a lot like Sandy Saddler up until then.
Yeah, but more athletic, less dirty.
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Old 11-19-2019, 07:33 AM #57
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Originally Posted by them_apples View Post
I never said Larry is gonna get whiped out, I fully agree that Holmes is an ATG hw. He can mix it up with anyone, his chin is good, his speed, heart, skills etc - I just don't think he's better than prime Foreman.

Does Larry hit harder than Ali? likely a little bit, because he tended to load up a bit more. However, Larry doesn't sit anywhere near the hardest hitters George has faced, and I wouldn't consider Ali a light hitter WHEN he decided to hit someone hard.

Holmes was more fundamentally sound than Ali, but he was also like I said, less crafty - a little bit of a windup toy and like YOU said, he wasn't as strong.

I don't think Holmes jab is better than Ali's. It's better than Ali's for about 2 rounds, because he comes out hot and puts a lot on that jab in an effort to say his jabs better than Ali's. However, because he is trying too hard with that jab, you can kinda see it coming after adjusting which is why that jab usually got taken away by good fighters and maybe made an appearance again in later rounds because his opponent forgets he had it. Ali never had this problem because he understood the wonderful craft of being subtle. There was no give away on Ali's jab, just pop - a glove to the face and you can't do anything about it, and if you try - the right hand is coming to bother you not a second later. With Holmes, sure the jab is coming real fast, but so is that shoulder, hips and torso all the little extra things Holmes did to make that Jab come out fast - and thats a lot of green lights and not really a sign of someone who has mastered his craft.

The old masters used to say, never waste energy hitting a man with your hardest shot if he is prepared to take it.

If you compare Ali to Holmes, Ali is fighting at 60 percent 90 percent of the time, and only in pockets is he really exerting real effort - when it really matters, like teeing off on George in round 7 or when he takes a breather.

If you look at Holmes, he's just thinking FAST, I gotta be fast and he comes out and has success for a bit, then the fight get's ugly a few rounds in because he's not really being clever - he's just athletically fast and it takes his opponent a few rounds to adjust. Foreman in 74 is an ATG level HW, Holmes isn't gonna have more than 2 rounds looking sharp against Foreman before he catches something big and the fight goes in a different direction.

Is Young a good fighter? yeah I know he was. He he's not great, and even George nearly put him away in that "boxing" match. Young showed he had heart and some degree of skill.

Great post.

Ali had a jab more like Harada, Holmes had a jab more like Hagler. Both were used extensively; one more consistently one with more pop.

I wouldn't say Ali's was better. Holmes did exactly what he needed it to do. Believe me, Foreman is gonna get checked by that jab, and he's not going to like it. Holmes' fight with Norton shows that Larry can start strong and finish stronger. And I really don't think that was Larry at his best - not quite, though very, very close. That was probably the fight that put him over the top.

He'll get knocked down. He'll get battered. He'll wind up places he doesn't wanna be. But he hangs on. Unlike Lyle, he can actually go the distance. Even if that was Foreman at a personal low, it showed his offensive ceiling. Larry survives it.
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Old 11-19-2019, 07:38 AM #58
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Foreman lands a good one, Holmes goes kaputt.
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Old 11-19-2019, 10:52 AM #59
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Originally Posted by Rusty Tromboni View Post
Great post.

Ali had a jab more like Harada, Holmes had a jab more like Hagler. Both were used extensively; one more consistently one with more pop.

I wouldn't say Ali's was better. Holmes did exactly what he needed it to do. Believe me, Foreman is gonna get checked by that jab, and he's not going to like it. Holmes' fight with Norton shows that Larry can start strong and finish stronger. And I really don't think that was Larry at his best - not quite, though very, very close. That was probably the fight that put him over the top.

He'll get knocked down. He'll get battered. He'll wind up places he doesn't wanna be. But he hangs on. Unlike Lyle, he can actually go the distance. Even if that was Foreman at a personal low, it showed his offensive ceiling. Larry survives it.
I just don't see it, Foreman was really pacing himself and coming in heavier by the time he fought Lyle. He was basically boxing but got lured into an ugly slug fest.

As for the jab reference I think Hagler has a better jab than Holmes, but maybe that's just me. I think Haglers jab is one of the best of all time.

funny talking about jabs though, Foremans Jab is incredibly good too. That jab one him a title in the 90's.

I don't know if Holmes jabs is that effective vs Foreman.
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Old 11-19-2019, 11:18 AM #60
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Originally Posted by Rusty Tromboni View Post
very interesting.

1) Liston was shot. Everyone knew that.
2 questions

A. what point was the undisputed HW champion Sonny Liston shot?
B. Are these everyone who knew he was shot mostly you?
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