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Old 01-15-2020, 10:09 PM #81
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is online now
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Originally Posted by them_apples View Post
I agree, this is the point I make with you constantly yet you seem to refute it at times.

Boxing has become a sport that lower level athletes have a better shot at, much like MMA. Boxing used to hold the cream of the crop.

I agree Lomachenko, Mayweather and Pac were high tier athletes. Fury I donít think so.

How many of Todayís Heavyweights are actually big strong heavyweights? Most of them are fat. We donít even know how light a 6 ft Ruiz would be if you xrayed his body. Heís only 6 ft tall. The footage of him sparring Holyfield he looks smaller than Holyfield, who was a small heavyweight.

If Quarry was fat at 240 would you consider him a big heavyweight? There old sparring footage of him later in his career listed at 233, completely shot, but he just looked like a porky heavyweight today.

Heís in the grey shirt, dude heís sparring is 6 ft 4 [Link View Has Been Removed. Click Here To Unlock This Content.]

[Link View Has Been Removed. Click Here To Unlock This Content.]

He doesnít even look that fat
Good find, man.

The truth is, Boxing still pays well. A lot of big guys are inherently unathletic. If you watch basketball (i know no one does anymore) it's become a freakshow where the rules no longer apply and anything resembling contact draws a whistle. Dudes just don't have the coordination and wind to be atheltic. They might sprint and hop really well. But that's about it.

So smaller guys can get away with packing on weight and still enjoy an advantage in coordination, wind, and speed. Strength is how you use it, so that can be accommodated for, too.

In Wrestling we'd see it all the time. Especially because of Football, the bologna bi.tch tit division had dudes who looked like Sumos. Most would lift a lot, and eat a lot. Just like for Football season. I'd always weigh my big boys, even though they didn't have a limit, or had more generous limits. And I would pair them with older, more experienced smaller guys.Plenty of coaches don't care, though.

With Fury, I do believe he's pretty athletic. He moves incredibly well for his size. If we were shorter and lighter, he'd be that much better. He's what a lot of guys call the dream Quarterback of the future. He would have been bigger, FASTER Roethlisberger. He's definitely more athletic than Brady and Manning. Growing up in England, though, playing Football was never in his future.
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Old 01-15-2020, 11:13 PM #82
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- -No need to show your obvious analytical shortcomings Rusty.

Fury is a pure fighter with some boxing nuance. That's all he is and has carved out a fine living doing it.

Maybe he could be an Ace dart player after retirement to float your petticoats.
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Old 01-15-2020, 11:58 PM #83
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Good find, man.

The truth is, Boxing still pays well. A lot of big guys are inherently unathletic. If you watch basketball (i know no one does anymore) it's become a freakshow where the rules no longer apply and anything resembling contact draws a whistle. Dudes just don't have the coordination and wind to be atheltic. They might sprint and hop really well. But that's about it.

So smaller guys can get away with packing on weight and still enjoy an advantage in coordination, wind, and speed. Strength is how you use it, so that can be accommodated for, too.

In Wrestling we'd see it all the time. Especially because of Football, the bologna bi.tch tit division had dudes who looked like Sumos. Most would lift a lot, and eat a lot. Just like for Football season. I'd always weigh my big boys, even though they didn't have a limit, or had more generous limits. And I would pair them with older, more experienced smaller guys.Plenty of coaches don't care, though.

With Fury, I do believe he's pretty athletic. He moves incredibly well for his size. If we were shorter and lighter, he'd be that much better. He's what a lot of guys call the dream Quarterback of the future. He would have been bigger, FASTER Roethlisberger. He's definitely more athletic than Brady and Manning. Growing up in England, though, playing Football was never in his future.

I'm not saying Fury doesn't move well for his size, he does. In todays heavyweight divison he is likely the best HW.

This is my realistic take on Fury.

he's 6 ft 8 but actually slim in frame. His skull and hands aren't that huge, basically, he's skinny fat. His punches are light, his chins suspect but heart lets you recover and get up when you go down, his shots are quick. he's loose which is good because of his low muscle tone and because of this he has good stamina even when fat. Fury could be a very tall skinny guy, if all the weight came off of him. He's doesn't have a lot of muscle tone underneath that flab. Truth be told, Wilder has more natural muscle tone than Fury, he's just so lean he comes in at 212. I wouldn't be surprised if Fury would be around the same, given the same bodyfat percentage - and thats at 6 ft 8. Wilder made him look really slick because Wilder really telegraphs everything. Even I couldn't believe how easily Fury was making Wilder miss. Fury has never looked that good, it's just Wilder is just that bad, with his one redeeming skill and thats his power and willingness to throw hard as well.

this is why when Wilder and Fury fight, Wilder is the stalker Fury boxes and moves. You xray these guys and they are completely different in build and makeup. It doesn't help that Wilder has disproportionately weak legs which sort of forces him to hobble around off Balance. It also keeps his feet panted though.

Furys real advantage comes in the form of having great ring confidence and above average skill for a guy as tall as 6 ft 8.

That being said though, it's not gonna carry him wins over past great heavyweights. People speak of Furys win over Wlad, but Wlad was never good - in fact Wlad was stomping similar competition that we have today. Tomato Cans. Wlad was even stopped cold on numerous occasions, but once all the stiff competition left people forget and said he ruled the division. Vitali was the far superior brother with a more thoroughbred build (he wasn't built in the gym).

Fury is the best heavyweight today, but today really has nothing to show for it. I think it's probably the weakest division we have ever had honestly.

If Wilder was in with Lewis, Mercer, Holyfield, Tyson, 90's Foreman, that era all of those guys would stop Wilder in a very short time. You couldn't be champ back then with that lack of skill. The media is duping everyone. Theres always been dudes who a big punch. You need ability.

Last edited by them_apples; 01-16-2020 at 12:05 AM.
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Old 01-16-2020, 11:58 AM #84
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Originally Posted by them_apples View Post
I'm not saying Fury doesn't move well for his size, he does. In todays heavyweight divison he is likely the best HW.

This is my realistic take on Fury.

he's 6 ft 8 but actually slim in frame. His skull and hands aren't that huge, basically, he's skinny fat. His punches are light, his chins suspect but heart lets you recover and get up when you go down, his shots are quick. he's loose which is good because of his low muscle tone and because of this he has good stamina even when fat. Fury could be a very tall skinny guy, if all the weight came off of him. He's doesn't have a lot of muscle tone underneath that flab. Truth be told, Wilder has more natural muscle tone than Fury, he's just so lean he comes in at 212. I wouldn't be surprised if Fury would be around the same, given the same bodyfat percentage - and thats at 6 ft 8. Wilder made him look really slick because Wilder really telegraphs everything. Even I couldn't believe how easily Fury was making Wilder miss. Fury has never looked that good, it's just Wilder is just that bad, with his one redeeming skill and thats his power and willingness to throw hard as well.

this is why when Wilder and Fury fight, Wilder is the stalker Fury boxes and moves. You xray these guys and they are completely different in build and makeup. It doesn't help that Wilder has disproportionately weak legs which sort of forces him to hobble around off Balance. It also keeps his feet panted though.

Furys real advantage comes in the form of having great ring confidence and above average skill for a guy as tall as 6 ft 8.

That being said though, it's not gonna carry him wins over past great heavyweights. People speak of Furys win over Wlad, but Wlad was never good - in fact Wlad was stomping similar competition that we have today. Tomato Cans. Wlad was even stopped cold on numerous occasions, but once all the stiff competition left people forget and said he ruled the division. Vitali was the far superior brother with a more thoroughbred build (he wasn't built in the gym).

Fury is the best heavyweight today, but today really has nothing to show for it. I think it's probably the weakest division we have ever had honestly.

If Wilder was in with Lewis, Mercer, Holyfield, Tyson, 90's Foreman, that era all of those guys would stop Wilder in a very short time. You couldn't be champ back then with that lack of skill. The media is duping everyone. Theres always been dudes who a big punch. You need ability.
That's insightful.

But it can pretty much be applied to most fighters. Certainly ALL Heavyweights.

If Ali were Patterson's size, do you really think he would have won many rounds? Patterson might have been even more effective than Frazier at sending him to the canvas.

Ali hit like a bi.tch, and had pourous defense. Being bigger and faster than 99% of his opponents helped A LOT. But a guy like that fighting at Lightweight would be KILLED by Duran.

How come you never even see Light Heavyweights try to fight like Foreman? Because the competition is too skilled technically and phsycailly.

At least with Fury, we can say that if he were smaller, he'd be lighter and more coordinated. It would be EASIER for him if he were smaller. Sure, his size helps tremendously. But it's also a detriment.

See? It can be applied across the board.
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Old 01-17-2020, 01:31 PM #85
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Originally Posted by Rusty Tromboni View Post
That's insightful.

But it can pretty much be applied to most fighters. Certainly ALL Heavyweights.

If Ali were Patterson's size,
patterson was heavyweight champion by dint of his handspeed, not beacause he was slowed down by extra mass.

You have it the wrong way round. You shouldnt be thinking the wrong way round.
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Old 01-17-2020, 03:53 PM #86
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Originally Posted by Rusty Tromboni View Post
That's insightful.

But it can pretty much be applied to most fighters. Certainly ALL Heavyweights.

If Ali were Patterson's size, do you really think he would have won many rounds? Patterson might have been even more effective than Frazier at sending him to the canvas.

Ali hit like a bi.tch, and had pourous defense. Being bigger and faster than 99% of his opponents helped A LOT. But a guy like that fighting at Lightweight would be KILLED by Duran.

How come you never even see Light Heavyweights try to fight like Foreman? Because the competition is too skilled technically and phsycailly.

At least with Fury, we can say that if he were smaller, he'd be lighter and more coordinated. It would be EASIER for him if he were smaller. Sure, his size helps tremendously. But it's also a detriment.

See? It can be applied across the board.

The smaller you get, the more things you can do. The bigger you get, you get more weight to shove around, you generally have longer arms and can take a better shot. Some guys are just tall though, not big. Some guys are big but short so they are lighter.

Patterson was a light Heavyweight and he couldn't take a Heavyweight shot, even if he came in 25 lbs heavier. Frazier was thoroughbred at 205, he looked worse at 224 so that throws that myth of weight out the window.

Alis defense was always good. That's why his face had no marks. He rolled shots. They grazed him. Frazier left hooks for the first half of the fight were being rolled by Ali. Later on when Ali got tired Frazier put a delay on his left hook, Ali took the feint and rolled, a second later catching the left hook flush.

If you watch Ali fight, watch what his head does when a punch gets thrown at him, he rolls to one direction so the shot not only doesn't land flush, but he also moves in the direction of the motion as well. It's a combined effect. (the Russians did this in ww2 on tanks, slanted the armor to shells would often deflect) Ali is so good at it you can really only tell when an opponent fakes him and he falls for it. Otherwise he moves with the shot so well.

Frazier wasn't connecting on Ali early with any significance, but he was tearing up his body. If Ali was getting hit he would have been stopped.

The benefit of his defense is that he's not relying on his hands to defend punches, guys that do that only have limited success. The second you miss a block the punch is landing flush everytime because you haven't learned how to move with it. Even more relevant with small 8 Oz gloves. New gloves are wider at 8 Oz, for new age noob boxers.

Ali would make his oponents lose confidence this way by never connecting flush and always being susceptible to counters. Ali was a master.

On a side note. Foreman fought identical to featherweight Sandy Saddler. A defense that revolved around stopping punches before they were even thrown by manipulating his oponents shoulders.

Last edited by them_apples; 01-17-2020 at 03:58 PM.
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Old 01-17-2020, 06:37 PM #87
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patterson was heavyweight champion by dint of his handspeed, not beacause he was slowed down by extra mass.

You have it the wrong way round. You shouldnt be thinking the wrong way round.
You never cease to amaze me.

Go ahead and say it. We all know you want to: Patterson was the BIGGER man in those fights, he dwarfed Ali, actually.
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Old 01-17-2020, 06:46 PM #88
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The smaller you get, the more things you can do. The bigger you get, you get more weight to shove around, you generally have longer arms and can take a better shot. Some guys are just tall though, not big. Some guys are big but short so they are lighter.

Patterson was a light Heavyweight and he couldn't take a Heavyweight shot, even if he came in 25 lbs heavier. Frazier was thoroughbred at 205, he looked worse at 224 so that throws that myth of weight out the window.

Alis defense was always good. That's why his face had no marks. He rolled shots. They grazed him. Frazier left hooks for the first half of the fight were being rolled by Ali. Later on when Ali got tired Frazier put a delay on his left hook, Ali took the feint and rolled, a second later catching the left hook flush.

If you watch Ali fight, watch what his head does when a punch gets thrown at him, he rolls to one direction so the shot not only doesn't land flush, but he also moves in the direction of the motion as well. It's a combined effect. (the Russians did this in ww2 on tanks, slanted the armor to shells would often deflect) Ali is so good at it you can really only tell when an opponent fakes him and he falls for it. Otherwise he moves with the shot so well.

Frazier wasn't connecting on Ali early with any significance, but he was tearing up his body. If Ali was getting hit he would have been stopped.

The benefit of his defense is that he's not relying on his hands to defend punches, guys that do that only have limited success. The second you miss a block the punch is landing flush everytime because you haven't learned how to move with it. Even more relevant with small 8 Oz gloves. New gloves are wider at 8 Oz, for new age noob boxers.

Ali would make his oponents lose confidence this way by never connecting flush and always being susceptible to counters. Ali was a master.

On a side note. Foreman fought identical to featherweight Sandy Saddler. A defense that revolved around stopping punches before they were even thrown by manipulating his oponents shoulders.
Patterson might not have been able to take a punch at Light HEavyweight, either. He didn't stick around long enough for his chin to be tested. Quarry and Ingo were his size and put him on the mat easier than Ali did.

Ali's defense wasn't great. It's terribly overrated. What he did worked because he was fighting shorter, less athletic men. He worked for years with Dundee, who trained men like El Feo, Leonard and PAstrano... it was simply beyond Ali to refine his skills.

While it's true a smaller Ali would be even faster (insane) and more coordinated, it's hard to imagine he'd ever round out all those rough edges. Instead, he'd run into men who could match his speed/off-set it with superior technique and timing. And where he couldn't impose his size.

That's actually what happened against Frazier and Norton, but folks just write that off as Ali having been worse post-exile. (It's unlikely a Pre-Exile Ali gives either of those men much trouble).

Again, how great was Macho Camacho? Rosario had him running scared, and Chavez ruined him. Ali was tougher than Camacho, but no one talks about Camacho as if he were the greatest in any division which he fought it.

Ali was the Jack Johnson of his era. Decent guy who looked great because he out-matched his competition. Move him forward a decade of two, and he looks much more pedestrian.
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Old 01-17-2020, 09:27 PM #89
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That is one of the better questions.
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Old 01-17-2020, 09:47 PM #90
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Sorry, wrong thread.
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