I think Abel Sanchez ruined GGG. Look how much speed he's lost!

[strykr619]

Wow. You seem to think Conte is this genius and everything he says is the gospel. Now training at high altitude ruins fighters even though champion boxers have been training in the mountains and coming into the ring in great shape for the last hundred years or so. Tell Marquez what a fool he was to train in the Mexican mountains at 12000 ft. and how it ruined and cut short his career. How many champions has Conte trained compared to Sanchez? Why do good boxers come from all over the world to be trained by Sanchez? By the way boxers age at exactly the same rate today that they always have. Most boxers start to go down hill after age 30 the same as ever. There was always the occasional ageless boxer like Archie Moore. Any slow down you see in GGG is due to him being 36 which on average is about 6 years past his prime. Why do you think Ward and Bradley retired at 33?

Ward retired due to the lack of big money fights not slippage, Bradley knew his limitations and IMO his fights with Pac took a lot out of him.

[_Rexy_]

This whole topic is one big wall of text

plus, I haven't seen Canelo on ANYONE'S p4p list since he failed two drug tests

[mathed]

How did ole slow ass GGG have flash gordon alvared running all over the ring and getting pummeled with jabs then? GGG must be a magician too as well as a boxer. The diva is getting stomped out this time, GGG gonna tax that ass.

[_Maxi]

If you are a fighter who uses PEDs, why would you discontinue PEDs and enroll in VADA testing if some of your opponents--including your biggest potential payday--are not enrolled? Why knowingly go into a fight with someone who is obviously, visibly doping without doping yourself?

Additionally, if you are arguing that GGG was using anabolic steroids in particular, how do you reconcile that with the fact that GGG has not only shown very little change in body composition from 2015 to May of 2018--in marked contrast to the Incredible Shrinking Canelo--but is now looking somewhat larger and more muscular than ever before?

1) He was forced to by WBC.
2) He did appear small in 2016 to my eyes. Against Wade and Brook. I could be wrong though.

[GelfSara]

1) He was forced to by WBC.
2) He did appear small in 2016 to my eyes. Against Wade and Brook. I could be wrong though.

Here is GGG vs. Proksa in 2012: https://youtu.be/kwuHffcoerY

Here is GGG vs. Martirosyan in 2018: https://youtu.be/zg3gy_AkyJY

To my eyes, GGG looks perhaps a wee-bit leaner in 2012, but that may simply be due to be more favorable lighting. In any case, I'd expect--all other things being equal--for a natural 30 year-old athlete to look slightly better than a natural 36 year-old athlete.

GGG did look somewhat flabby vs. Canelo in 2017, and it is possible that he did look a bit off in 2016 as well (I didn't notice it at the time), but I attribute this to GGG fighting twice per year in 2016-2017 instead of his previous 3-4 times per year. If--as I surmise--GGG is a boxer who ONLY trains hard and consistently when in Big Bear, it was a mistake for him to fight less frequently--and, apparently, GGG and his camp recognize this, as he is currently "on pace" to fight three times this year; if he is successful against Canelo on September 15, expect for him to take on either Billy Joe Saunders (should he win vs. Andrade) or Ryōta Murata in December. Both would be "big money" fights with huge live gates; Saunders would provide the opportunity to win another belt.

[satiev1]

I discovered this old video of GGG doing the mitts, and his muscles are so much leaner, he's so much quicker on his toes, and his hand speed, my lord his hand speed, it's like a completely different fighter. He actually looks athletic and explosive and reflexive here, as opposed to the plodding GGG we see nowadays.

https://youtu.be/2t9xf5uIFRQ?t=742

You can also see a much faster (even in 20z? gloves!) and much more powerful GGG in this vid from 5 years ago https://youtu.be/kRsxQ5uSP0Y?t=101.

Victor Conte has a theory that training in altitude into his mid-thirties has ruined GGG. Conte says after working out in the day, the muscles repair themselves while you sleep, but at high altitude in Big Bear, there is not enough oxygen in the air to fully repair your muscle fibers. Conte says in your twenties, the body's cells repair themselves so quickly that the body can basically compensate for the lack of oxygen in the air, but that if you keep doing it into your thirties, the body can no longer compensate, and your lean, "high twitch muscle fibers," which apparently take the most work to repair themselves, do not fully repair themselves. And I believe Conte said that as a result, the body will replace the lean muscle fibers with more bulky muscle because that's easier for the body to build.

Well, when you look at GGG now compared to when he was 30, all his muscles are the exact same shape and in the exact same place, but they're all saggy and bulky now (compared to before). Bulkier muscle takes more oxygen to operate, killing your stamina (GGG started slow vs both Canelo and Jacobs but still gassed by the 10th round, something he never did in his prime). Bulky muscle is also much slower and less explosive (GGG has struggled to land his power punches in recent fights going all the way back to Lemieux, with a few exceptions, and could not even knock down a welterweight in Kell Brook over 5 rounds because he couldn't catch Brook flush with many power shots due to his loss of speed).

At this point, as a GGG fan, I care less about whether he beats Canelo or not, and more about someone getting this information to his team so that he can change camp locations and hopefully undo some of the alleged damage to his body before his career is over and it's too late. Because it's clear looking at that old video, the rate GGG is losing speed seems abnormal even for 36 years old, and even if Canelo doesn't beat him, someone else is going to do it, and probably have a much easier time than people expect, due to how much speed and athleticism GGG is losing.

Disclaimer: This post contains my general recollection of what Victor Conte said in the interview. A detail or two may be off, but the conclusion about high altitude training ruining the fast, high twitch muscle is absolutely accurate to what he said.

Are you serious right now? 5 years ago he was 31 lol. He's about to be 37. Speed and reflexes are the first to go once a boxer hits late 30's.

[satiev1]

I know age can cause what I'm describing, but so can high altitude training and recovery, according to Victor Conte. Conte even said if GGG switched training locations, he could still recover some of the speed, power, and stamina he's lost, even at this age. Conte was specific that it is the altitude training and sleeping that is causing such a sharp decline, not age. If anyone out there knows GGG and cares about him, I hope someone actually gets that info to HIM! It's tragic that someone outside his camp could know this info that is key to helping not just GGG's career but his health and his body, but that he should be ignorant to it or not have anyone around who knows enough to be able to educate him about this. I'm sure he would fix the problem if he knew about it.

If there were a bunch of 37 year old fighters running around dominating the sport then I would agree with you. But there are none and very few if ever were still p4p at that age. And most did not train high altitude but were no longer in their prime once they reached late 30's.

[Science]

Have you ever thought that he could have been at the END of his workout in the 2nd video, and it was the beginning of mitt work in 1st video

[GelfSara]

If there were a bunch of 37 year old fighters running around dominating the sport then I would agree with you. But there are none and very few if ever were still p4p at that age. And most did not train high altitude but were no longer in their prime once they reached late 30's.

Age is certainly one factor in GGG's decline.


I actually agree with part of the OP's thesis, which is that GGG's preparation is sub-optimal; however I think altitude has absolutely nothing to do GGG's diminished performance in the ring, at least directly*.

*Part of the problem with GGG's preparation--as I see it--is overtraining, and altitude, as an additional source of physical stress, makes it easier to overtrain. However, when training is modified to avoid overtraining, I believe altitude--if anything--is of modest benefit to a professional boxer due to increased hematocrit.

Age, of course, also makes it easier to overtrain; the same training schedule that GGG may have thrived on in 2013 may be gross overkill today and may result in him being tired and flat on fight night.


From Drew Baye at Baye.com:


"The Sun Tan Analogy

Exercise is a type of stress we apply to the body to stimulate an adaptive response. The key word being “stimulate”. Exercise does not directly produce any improvements in the body, it stimulates the body to produce those improvements as an adaptive response to enable it to better handle the same stress in the future. In many ways, it is like getting a sun tan.

Exposure to sunlight does not directly produce a tan. The ultraviolet radiation in sunlight stimulates melanocytes in the skin to produce more melanin as a protective mechanism, darkening the skin. The brighter the sun, the more intense the radiation, the stronger the stimulus. The same situation occurs with exercise or any other stress – the more intense the stress the greater the stimulus for adaptation. If the sky is cloudy you can lay out all day and not stimulate any noticeable tanning because the intensity of ultraviolet radiation would be too low, but if the sun is high and the sky is clear you only have to lay out a little while to stimulate a tan. The same thing happens with exercise. If the level of effort is low you can do a large amount of exercise but not stimulate much in the way of improvements, but if the level of effort is very high very little is required for good results.

If a stress is intense enough to stimulate a significant adaptive response though, there will be a limit to how much the body can handle within some period of time. Up to a point, intense sun exposure will stimulate a tan, beyond that it starts to damage the skin, causing a burn. Up to a point intense exercise will stimulate improvements in strength, metabolic and cardiovascular conditioning and other aspects of fitness, but beyond some point the demands of the workout exceed what the body is able to recover from and adapt to and eventually can cause a loss of strength and conditioning, a situation called “overtraining”.

If you lay out to tan or use a tanning bed, when you’ve finished you don’t go back out or back to the bed and do it again five minutes later. The body needs time to recover before being exposed to the same stress again or the process of recovery and adaptation is interrupted and you risk damage. The same is true of exercise. After a workout your body requires time to recover from the effects of the workout and produce the improvements the workout stimulated. Although the amount varies between individuals, most people underestimate how much time they need for recovery between workouts."

The primary way for an athlete to adapt to age is reduce the frequency of the hard training sessions. For example, if GGG thrived on two hard training days per week in 2013 but is now struggling on such a schedule, he might choose to train hard only once every 5th day.

Another problem with GGG's training is that his "strength and conditioning" training is almost entirely "conditioning training" and virtually no "strength training"--resulting in predictable losses in speed and punching power--particularly in an already overtrained athlete. A true "strength AND conditioning" training method is that popularized by Nautilus and MedX founder Arthur Jones:

http://baye.com/project-total-conditioning

In short, what Jones advocated was whole-body circuit training targeting all major muscle groups, starting with large muscles and working toward small muscles, with roughly 8-12 exercises per training session, with all exercises taken to the point of momentary muscular failure (MMF), with at least 8 slow, smooth repetitions per exercise, and with as little time as possible between exercises (as the seat and weight and other settings for each machine were set before the training session began, a trainee would move from one exercise to the next in under 10 seconds). This type of training is...hard.

[TonyGe]

Cotto wanted a CW and so did Canelo. The catchweights both Canelo and Cotto requested were within the MW division so I dont know why GGG didnt take those fights.

Hell GGG wouldnt even budge 1 pound for Kell Brook who requested 157lbs, but GGG made him move up 13 whole pounds. Then GGG turns around and calls out Ward only to change his mind and say "Andre too much for me we need catchweight"

And if Gennady always fought the best available - since he refuses MW catchweights (which are PART OF MIDDLEWEIGHT) - than why didnt he fight Dervenchenko or Andrade? Hell even Spike O'Sullivan was at least a MW? Why did he just turned down BJS to rematch a guy he claims he beat???

What ????

Why do I always make you feel stupid??

He didn't take the catchweight because he didn't have to. It's the champions perogative and in the rules to fight at the middleweight division limit. After 30 its very hard for a fighter to drop weight. Look at Andre Ward. He moved up because making weight was tough on him. Anyway Golovkin and Canelo fought at middleweight. Canelo got what GB wanted which was getting Golovkin when he was older and Golovkin got his preferred weight. It turned out to be two great fights.