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Old 12-11-2019, 12:48 PM #61
them_apples them_apples is offline
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Originally Posted by Rusty Tromboni View Post
Then you didn't get it.




It's not that I don't take you seriously, or believe your posts are without meaning. In fact, they are generally well though out, well informed and on point. But sometimes your own insights are lost on you.

Here's a question: if Marciano came of age in Ali's era, you don't think he would have fought at 175, instead? If he fought at Heavyweight, would he have continued to come in below 190 pounds when fighting men like Ali, Bugner, Frazier and Foreman?
I don't know how much weight Rocky put on for fight night, I don't know how effective he would be if he came in heavier. I don't know if he could have made 175 and felt good, even with a second day weight in, I feel that would have been a serious stretch for him, since he already had an atrophied look from extensive amounts of cardio to cope with his muscle building tendancies and lack of speed due to his heavy bone structure (thats parts in his book btw).

The part you cant get over is if someone isn't heavy enough they dont have a chance. the scale rules everything for you, when in reality even smaller men than Rocky have gone on to bust up heavyweights. Early in Holyfields Career, he wasn't even struggling to make 175. He said his legs were thin and didn't hold much weight.

Another thing you are forgetting, is if 2 men are 200 lbs, at one is 5 ft 10 the other is 6 ft 3, the shorter guy, given the circumstances are the same, is stronger and stockier, actually bigger so to speak (given he is not blown up and these are their natural weights).

If we have footage of Rocky Hammering 215 lb Louis (I get it old man Louis) through the ropes and manhandling him then that should solve the size problem right there. I remember there was another man on his record, Johnny schkor who at 6 ft 5 and 220 lbs was koed and flattened easily by Rocky. In fact, the biggest guys he fought fell down the easiest because they gave him a big target, it was the smaller quick guys that gave Rocky lots of trouble.

I'm not saying rocky is the greatest of all time, but this whole "he's a cruiserweight" he's too small blah bull**** is wearing on me. He was small in his day too, but he killed everyone.

I love how everyone today is too big for him yet if he fought Carnera nobody would bet against Rocky. they got their HD goggles on where everyone in HD is better. Wilder and Joshua are both extremely mediocre in terms of ability, Wilder is completely untested - Ortiz was a creation. Joshua we already know can't take a shot and is an average puncher at best. Fury has the most skill but can't break an egg and has a suspect chin as well. Non of these guys are unbeatable or even special for that matter.

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Old 12-11-2019, 01:08 PM #62
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Originally Posted by QueensburyRules View Post
- -Lotta blah-blah analysis here.

Nobody better than Archie at flitting between LH and heavy and I have no doubt with weight training he'd scale 205 for a twelve rd title fight and have tricks unfathomable to the current crop of boxing experts and fighters.

It won't make him a great heavy though, because he was already great thru his LH run.

I've seen Andy Ruiz in the 240s, and he is a formidable looking, one off physical speciman, but like many big men, not in stature, but in natural bone and muscle size, he prefers to be fat as that's where he feels the strongest.

Most Olympic hvy class weightlifters have that extra heft, but size can also be visually misleading. The Cowboys had a Tackle (Newton) going 6-3, 330 that everybody thought was fat, but Tom Landry who introduced scientific wt training into the nfl with spectacular results said Newtons bodyfat measured by H2O immersion was the lowest on the team, even the long and lean defensive backs.

That was the genius of Big George's comeback, ie he embraced his size. Early in it against Qawi he was down to 235, in traditional boxing shape, and looked like he coulda been modeling speedos.

He knocked the careening Qawi around like so many bowling pins, and then promptly returned to the 250s where he did his best work.

AJ has fallen into the modern science physical training that is trying to maximize rehydrated physical size in a 12 rd era where KDs are scored for and against fighters, and typically that involves specific wt training all why aesthetically trying to look as low body fat traditional fighters of yore, so it's hard to know what his natural body bulk would be, but in the 240s he was running 10.5 100 meter times that would likely beat most ever Decathlete medalist who ever existed and he's a true 6-6 stature.

I'd dismiss his training for this fight as I would Andy's. Too much of a good thing seldom pays off, but it will in million$$$ for this fight...only in boxing!
interesting you brought up Foremans career low at 235 in his comeback. I agree he looked good, and only 4-5 lbs heavier than he was when he retired. Most don't know that. However, at 235 in his comeback he trained down to make that, his muscles looked more atrophied than in his original campaign. He still carried more fat. He wasn't as explosive. At that point in his career staying at 235 wasn't benefitting him unless he found a way to comfortably stay there. Years earlier he was over 300+ lbs, he was running 10 miles every day and managed to make 235 on a long distance runners training regimen. It's not the same as being a youthful 235 whos body is comfortable at the weight.

Making 215 lbs for ruiz now would kill him, it would take years for ruiz to be comfortable at the weight and extreme dedication. This is the problem. He would have to run so many miles that it would kill off his strength in the process, had to maintained his weight better his entire career it wouldn't take as much cardio to keep it off and his muscles wouldnt atrophy.

Last edited by them_apples; 12-11-2019 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 12-11-2019, 04:54 PM #63
QueensburyRules QueensburyRules is offline
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interesting you brought up Foremans career low at 235 in his comeback. I agree he looked good, and only 4-5 lbs heavier than he was when he retired. Most don't know that. However, at 235 in his comeback he trained down to make that, his muscles looked more atrophied than in his original campaign. He still carried more fat. He wasn't as explosive. At that point in his career staying at 235 wasn't benefitting him unless he found a way to comfortably stay there. Years earlier he was over 300+ lbs, he was running 10 miles every day and managed to make 235 on a long distance runners training regimen. It's not the same as being a youthful 235 whos body is comfortable at the weight.

Making 215 lbs for ruiz now would kill him, it would take years for ruiz to be comfortable at the weight and extreme dedication. This is the problem. He would have to run so many miles that it would kill off his strength in the process, had to maintained his weight better his entire career it wouldn't take as much cardio to keep it off and his muscles wouldnt atrophy.
- -Other than they're human, men, and fighters, there is next to zero overlap between them.

Last time Andy was at 215 was 8th grade, and he ain't goin' back.
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Old 12-13-2019, 12:16 AM #64
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is offline
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I don't know how much weight Rocky put on for fight night, I don't know how effective he would be if he came in heavier. I don't know if he could have made 175 and felt good, even with a second day weight in, I feel that would have been a serious stretch for him, since he already had an atrophied look from extensive amounts of cardio to cope with his muscle building tendancies and lack of speed due to his heavy bone structure (thats parts in his book btw).

The part you cant get over is if someone isn't heavy enough they dont have a chance. the scale rules everything for you, when in reality even smaller men than Rocky have gone on to bust up heavyweights. Early in Holyfields Career, he wasn't even struggling to make 175. He said his legs were thin and didn't hold much weight.

Another thing you are forgetting, is if 2 men are 200 lbs, at one is 5 ft 10 the other is 6 ft 3, the shorter guy, given the circumstances are the same, is stronger and stockier, actually bigger so to speak (given he is not blown up and these are their natural weights).

If we have footage of Rocky Hammering 215 lb Louis (I get it old man Louis) through the ropes and manhandling him then that should solve the size problem right there. I remember there was another man on his record, Johnny schkor who at 6 ft 5 and 220 lbs was koed and flattened easily by Rocky. In fact, the biggest guys he fought fell down the easiest because they gave him a big target, it was the smaller quick guys that gave Rocky lots of trouble.

I'm not saying rocky is the greatest of all time, but this whole "he's a cruiserweight" he's too small blah bull**** is wearing on me. He was small in his day too, but he killed everyone.

I love how everyone today is too big for him yet if he fought Carnera nobody would bet against Rocky. they got their HD goggles on where everyone in HD is better. Wilder and Joshua are both extremely mediocre in terms of ability, Wilder is completely untested - Ortiz was a creation. Joshua we already know can't take a shot and is an average puncher at best. Fury has the most skill but can't break an egg and has a suspect chin as well. Non of these guys are unbeatable or even special for that matter.
Quarry didn't have Marciano's one-punch power, but he's clearly better than anyone Marciano fought. Better, perhaps, even than Marciano.

How did things go for him against Frazier and Ali?

Marciano would have to make a decision: drop to 175, or bulk up to lessen the weight disparity between him and his best opponents.

If Hagler had fought in Harry Greb's era or before, we might have never seen Marvin fight at 160 since the best Hagler probably could carry a few extra pounds and throw a heavier punch. But the era he fought in demanded he compete as a Middleweight.
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Old 12-13-2019, 08:36 PM #65
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Quarry didn't have Marciano's one-punch power, but he's clearly better than anyone Marciano fought. Better, perhaps, even than Marciano.

How did things go for him against Frazier and Ali?

Marciano would have to make a decision: drop to 175, or bulk up to lessen the weight disparity between him and his best opponents.

If Hagler had fought in Harry Greb's era or before, we might have never seen Marvin fight at 160 since the best Hagler probably could carry a few extra pounds and throw a heavier punch. But the era he fought in demanded he compete as a Middleweight.
There is so much more to it then that, you treat boxing like it's a video game with stat lines. Marciano displayed the type of ring confidence and heart that few champions ever have. If any to be honest. Rocky was as mean as they come and almost impossible to intimidate or discourage. Every top fighter he faced was leagues better than him in the general skills department, they all however succumbed to his pressure, because once you are in the ring with someone who never quits and never shows any respect whatsoever, things change.

In the second Walcott fight, He stopped Walcott brutally because Walcott mentally checked out once the punches started flying. He already threw everything but the kitchen sink at rocky the first time around, once he saw that same relentless bull coming at him with full expectation to beat on him for another 15 rounds he just checked out and said "nah, not again **** this".

I don't think rocky was the greatest heavyweight of all time by any means, but Liston did and it shines a light from a real fighters understanding of how character plays a role in a champion. Liston stated Rocky was the greatest heavyweight ever because he absolutely never gave up and refused to lose. Rocky's entire mentality and training regimen was he was going to bring more than the next guy no matter what, I can't imagine what it would take to completely put the guy away for good. I could definitely see some great heavyweights winning decisions over him or maybe getting a tko stoppage at best by the ref.

Quarry was a tough guy, but he wasn't a winner. He also wasn't a very hard guy to figure out, Rocky was awkward and dangerous. He had bone crushing power and a very unorthodox way of fighting. If Rocky and Quarry fought, You would see Quarry land some good blows for about 3 or 4 rounds before being completely disconnected at some point.

If Rocky was such a bum, Ezzard Charles would have seriously tuned him up - and easily.

If you want to understand what this attribute is and find a modern day comparison, look at Marcos Maidana. From a stat line perspective, he's just a heavy handed brawler. He loses his balance and leaves himself wide open at times, has below average hand speed for someone at 140 or 147. What Marcos Maidana has that is rare for today is his mentality. He's doesn't respect anyone and he doesn't get intimidated. He also has an awkward but function first fighting style. fighters will stop throwing punches at him because he might just throw a haymaker at them while looking at their kneecap and stumbling off balance. They start to pucker up and just stay away from him, throwing less and becoming frustrated because there is nothing textbook to make sense of. Pacquiao was in a sense, a more elite version with better athletic attributes.

I know I am just shouting at a wall when trying to explain this stuff to you, but someone like Marciano isn't going to get tuned up and quit by someone like Anthony Joshua. Character goes a long way.

Hagler by the way, was making 160 EASILY. I don't know how much you have read up on him, but he even considered fighting at 154 when turning pro, but for Money reasons decided on 160.

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Old 12-13-2019, 08:45 PM #66
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Originally Posted by Rusty Tromboni View Post
Quarry didn't have Marciano's one-punch power, but he's clearly better than anyone Marciano fought. Better, perhaps, even than Marciano.

How did things go for him against Frazier and Ali?

Marciano would have to make a decision: drop to 175, or bulk up to lessen the weight disparity between him and his best opponents.

If Hagler had fought in Harry Greb's era or before, we might have never seen Marvin fight at 160 since the best Hagler probably could carry a few extra pounds and throw a heavier punch. But the era he fought in demanded he compete as a Middleweight.
Rusty... come on man. That is not clearly true by any stretch. Bob Foster was smaller and also Ko'ed Quarry so obviously size was not the only factor. Foster, albeit in a different way, was a big puncher as was Marciano.
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Old 12-13-2019, 08:59 PM #67
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Rusty... come on man. That is not clearly true by any stretch. Bob Foster was smaller and also Ko'ed Quarry so obviously size was not the only factor. Foster, albeit in a different way, was a big puncher as was Marciano.
I'm confused here. Foster Koed Jerry Quarrys brother, not Jerry. I am assuming Rusty is talking about Jerry not Mike. Or are you being sarcastic?
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Old 12-14-2019, 02:33 PM #68
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I'm confused here. Foster Koed Jerry Quarrys brother, not Jerry. I am assuming Rusty is talking about Jerry not Mike. Or are you being sarcastic?
Nope, my bad I get the Quarry's mixed up regularly.
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Old 12-14-2019, 05:19 PM #69
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There is so much more to it then that, you treat boxing like it's a video game with stat lines. Marciano displayed the type of ring confidence and heart that few champions ever have. If any to be honest. Rocky was as mean as they come and almost impossible to intimidate or discourage. Every top fighter he faced was leagues better than him in the general skills department, they all however succumbed to his pressure, because once you are in the ring with someone who never quits and never shows any respect whatsoever, things change.

In the second Walcott fight, He stopped Walcott brutally because Walcott mentally checked out once the punches started flying. He already threw everything but the kitchen sink at rocky the first time around, once he saw that same relentless bull coming at him with full expectation to beat on him for another 15 rounds he just checked out and said "nah, not again **** this".

I don't think rocky was the greatest heavyweight of all time by any means, but Liston did and it shines a light from a real fighters understanding of how character plays a role in a champion. Liston stated Rocky was the greatest heavyweight ever because he absolutely never gave up and refused to lose. Rocky's entire mentality and training regimen was he was going to bring more than the next guy no matter what, I can't imagine what it would take to completely put the guy away for good. I could definitely see some great heavyweights winning decisions over him or maybe getting a tko stoppage at best by the ref.

Quarry was a tough guy, but he wasn't a winner. He also wasn't a very hard guy to figure out, Rocky was awkward and dangerous. He had bone crushing power and a very unorthodox way of fighting. If Rocky and Quarry fought, You would see Quarry land some good blows for about 3 or 4 rounds before being completely disconnected at some point.

If Rocky was such a bum, Ezzard Charles would have seriously tuned him up - and easily.

If you want to understand what this attribute is and find a modern day comparison, look at Marcos Maidana. From a stat line perspective, he's just a heavy handed brawler. He loses his balance and leaves himself wide open at times, has below average hand speed for someone at 140 or 147. What Marcos Maidana has that is rare for today is his mentality. He's doesn't respect anyone and he doesn't get intimidated. He also has an awkward but function first fighting style. fighters will stop throwing punches at him because he might just throw a haymaker at them while looking at their kneecap and stumbling off balance. They start to pucker up and just stay away from him, throwing less and becoming frustrated because there is nothing textbook to make sense of. Pacquiao was in a sense, a more elite version with better athletic attributes.

I know I am just shouting at a wall when trying to explain this stuff to you, but someone like Marciano isn't going to get tuned up and quit by someone like Anthony Joshua. Character goes a long way.

Hagler by the way, was making 160 EASILY. I don't know how much you have read up on him, but he even considered fighting at 154 when turning pro, but for Money reasons decided on 160.

Exquisite post, Apples, but in reponse to a churl's wag.
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Old 12-14-2019, 07:06 PM #70
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Rusty... come on man. That is not clearly true by any stretch. Bob Foster was smaller and also Ko'ed Quarry so obviously size was not the only factor. Foster, albeit in a different way, was a big puncher as was Marciano.
- -Sheriff Bob KOed Jerry' bro,
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