Forum Navigation
Go Back   Boxing Forum > Boxing Forums > Boxing History

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-01-2018, 09:27 PM #1
CromCruach CromCruach is offline
Amateur
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 1
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Rep Power: 0
CromCruach is on a distinguished road
Points: 1,232.11
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 1,232.11
Default Obscure ref re 19th century boxing -please help!

Hi,

I once read "Royal Flash" a novel in the series of the "Flashman Papers". This novel was written as a parody of "The prisoner of Zenda" novel. Now, Mr Fraser, the author, would routinely incorporate real historical figures among the fiction he wrote. For example, in 1 passage in the book, he writes about a well-known 19th century boxer in England who challenges Bismarck to a fight - the fight requires the boxer to not move his feet at all. In the (fictional) passage, the boxer manages to humiliate Bismarck by being able to move his body away from Bismarck's blows while still not moving his feet. Anyway, while the fight with Bismarck was fictional, I am reasonably certain that that 19th century boxer was a real historical character. Does anyone know who he was? I do not have the book with me. Also, would a brilliant boxer indeed be able to avoid ever being hit if faced with a relative amateur boxer, while being forced to keep his feet in the same position? Thanks!
CromCruach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2018, 10:22 PM #2
ShoulderRoll ShoulderRoll is offline
North America Runs Boxing
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 38,490
Quoted: 15315 Post(s)
Rep Power: 112
ShoulderRoll has a reputation beyond reputeShoulderRoll has a reputation beyond reputeShoulderRoll has a reputation beyond reputeShoulderRoll has a reputation beyond reputeShoulderRoll has a reputation beyond reputeShoulderRoll has a reputation beyond reputeShoulderRoll has a reputation beyond reputeShoulderRoll has a reputation beyond reputeShoulderRoll has a reputation beyond reputeShoulderRoll has a reputation beyond reputeShoulderRoll has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 83,734.11
Bank: 338,295.83
Total Points: 422,029.94
excellent posts mate - Alx. good post about Wlad being like Bute - RossCA To a good poster - ROSS CALIFORNIA To a good poster - ROSS CALIFORNIA brewed just 4 u - sugarsmosley 
valuable advice to training forum - jas Thanks for the green man,I should have won poster of the year,but the site is in denial.bitches huh ? - Scott-Weiland All in .&w - BERNIE'S CORNER Phone spazzed on gift giving. Can't green ya but have this beer on me. All in good fun ! - BERNIE'S CORNER Easily one of the best posters on the forum - JK1700 
Good thread and comments - maracho A truce - lfc19titles A truce - lfc19titles 
Default

Look at prime Floyd Mayweather Jr to see real life examples of standing "in the pocket" without getting hit.

As to the famous 19th century boxer the only big names that come to mind are Tom Cribb and Jem Mace. Mace was known for having a clever defense so it was probably him.
ShoulderRoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2018, 11:27 PM #3
OctoberRed OctoberRed is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: London
Posts: 11,598
Quoted: 4301 Post(s)
Rep Power: 84
OctoberRed has a reputation beyond reputeOctoberRed has a reputation beyond reputeOctoberRed has a reputation beyond reputeOctoberRed has a reputation beyond reputeOctoberRed has a reputation beyond reputeOctoberRed has a reputation beyond reputeOctoberRed has a reputation beyond reputeOctoberRed has a reputation beyond reputeOctoberRed has a reputation beyond reputeOctoberRed has a reputation beyond reputeOctoberRed has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 88,105.01
Bank: 1,535.61
Total Points: 89,640.62
Long Overdue. For your contribution to NSB. - 1hourRun I concur - jazluvr 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoulderRoll View Post
Look at prime Floyd Mayweather Jr to see real life examples of standing "in the pocket" without getting hit.

As to the famous 19th century boxer the only big names that come to mind are Tom Cribb and Jem Mace. Mace was known for having a clever defense so it was probably him.
Now you have me thinking if it was Mace as well.
OctoberRed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2019, 05:15 PM #4
QueensburyRules QueensburyRules is offline
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 5,161
Quoted: 2100 Post(s)
Rep Power: 12
QueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 94,676.29
Bank: 1,535.61
Total Points: 96,211.90
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CromCruach View Post
Hi,

I once read "Royal Flash" a novel in the series of the "Flashman Papers". This novel was written as a parody of "The prisoner of Zenda" novel. Now, Mr Fraser, the author, would routinely incorporate real historical figures among the fiction he wrote. For example, in 1 passage in the book, he writes about a well-known 19th century boxer in England who challenges Bismarck to a fight - the fight requires the boxer to not move his feet at all. In the (fictional) passage, the boxer manages to humiliate Bismarck by being able to move his body away from Bismarck's blows while still not moving his feet. Anyway, while the fight with Bismarck was fictional, I am reasonably certain that that 19th century boxer was a real historical character. Does anyone know who he was? I do not have the book with me. Also, would a brilliant boxer indeed be able to avoid ever being hit if faced with a relative amateur boxer, while being forced to keep his feet in the same position? Thanks!

- -Aussie Young Griffo yer Culprit.

In the top 1% of gifted boxers, he squandered his prime in drink. As his career faded in his haze, to earn $$$ for his drink he'd challenge the foolish to hi him as he strode feet planted infront of them.

Rough synopsis here with record link for review.

[Link View Has Been Removed. Click Here To Unlock This Content.]
QueensburyRules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2019, 11:24 PM #5
OctoberRed OctoberRed is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: London
Posts: 11,598
Quoted: 4301 Post(s)
Rep Power: 84
OctoberRed has a reputation beyond reputeOctoberRed has a reputation beyond reputeOctoberRed has a reputation beyond reputeOctoberRed has a reputation beyond reputeOctoberRed has a reputation beyond reputeOctoberRed has a reputation beyond reputeOctoberRed has a reputation beyond reputeOctoberRed has a reputation beyond reputeOctoberRed has a reputation beyond reputeOctoberRed has a reputation beyond reputeOctoberRed has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 88,105.01
Bank: 1,535.61
Total Points: 89,640.62
Long Overdue. For your contribution to NSB. - 1hourRun I concur - jazluvr 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by QueensburyRules View Post
- -Aussie Young Griffo yer Culprit.

In the top 1% of gifted boxers, he squandered his prime in drink. As his career faded in his haze, to earn $$$ for his drink he'd challenge the foolish to hi him as he strode feet planted infront of them.

Rough synopsis here with record link for review.

[Link View Has Been Removed. Click Here To Unlock This Content.]
Queen comes in with the scoop!
OctoberRed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2019, 05:57 AM #6
Bundana Bundana is offline
Interim Champion
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 874
Quoted: 345 Post(s)
Rep Power: 12
Bundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 14,438.39
Bank: 1,884.04
Total Points: 16,322.43
Default

"Royal Flash" is set in the 1840s, so the timeline is all wrong for Griffo (who also wasn't British).

Mr. Fraser was a big fan of iconic bare-knuckle fighters... one of which was HOFer John Gully. Who not only was an early 19th century English heavyweight champion, but later became a member of the British Parliament (1832-37).

In the film version (1975), Gully is played by none other than Henry Cooper... who makes a fool of Otto Von Bismarck (Oliver Reed) in the sparring incident mentioned (approx. 15 min. into the movie).
[Link View Has Been Removed. Click Here To Unlock This Content.]

Last edited by Bundana; 11-18-2019 at 06:23 AM.
Bundana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2019, 10:50 AM #7
QueensburyRules QueensburyRules is offline
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 5,161
Quoted: 2100 Post(s)
Rep Power: 12
QueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 94,676.29
Bank: 1,535.61
Total Points: 96,211.90
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bundana View Post
"Royal Flash" is set in the 1840s, so the timeline is all wrong for Griffo (who also wasn't British).

Mr. Fraser was a big fan of iconic bare-knuckle fighters... one of which was HOFer John Gully. Who not only was an early 19th century English heavyweight champion, but later became a member of the British Parliament (1832-37).

In the film version (1975), Gully is played by none other than Henry Cooper... who makes a fool of Otto Von Bismarck (Oliver Reed) in the sparring incident mentioned (approx. 15 min. into the movie).
[Link View Has Been Removed. Click Here To Unlock This Content.]
- -I do believe Aussies a part of the British Commonwealth and able to fight for their titles.

As far as the movie setting, that's as irrevelant as a time machine in the future or the past. It's fiction, so the only question would be if Fraser was on the same timeline as Griffo was in his career.

If not Griffo, perhaps Bendigo could be the reference.
QueensburyRules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2019, 12:14 PM #8
Bundana Bundana is offline
Interim Champion
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 874
Quoted: 345 Post(s)
Rep Power: 12
Bundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 14,438.39
Bank: 1,884.04
Total Points: 16,322.43
Default

As you well know Griffo, as an Aussie who never lived or boxed in the UK, was not eligible to fight for a British title.

"Royal Flash" was the 2nd in a series of 12 books, published from 1969 to 2005 by George MacDonald Fraser.

The "star" of these books is a drunken coward, General Harry Paget Flashman, whose exploits from 1839-94 are chronicled in the series.

Flashman is of course completely fictional - but the settings and history of the events, and the people with whom he interacts are all largely based around historical events and individuals.

Which is why he didn't chose (for example) Joe Louis for the Bismarck incident, as it would be ludicrous and make no sense at all to have Louis suddenly pop up in the 1840s. And of course Griffo wouldn't fit either.

If you look up the movie on IMDB, you'll find that the screenplay was written by Mr. Fraser - based on his own book.
Bundana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2019, 02:47 PM #9
QueensburyRules QueensburyRules is offline
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 5,161
Quoted: 2100 Post(s)
Rep Power: 12
QueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond reputeQueensburyRules has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 94,676.29
Bank: 1,535.61
Total Points: 96,211.90
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bundana View Post
As you well know Griffo, as an Aussie who never lived or boxed in the UK, was not eligible to fight for a British title.

"Royal Flash" was the 2nd in a series of 12 books, published from 1969 to 2005 by George MacDonald Fraser.

The "star" of these books is a drunken coward, General Harry Paget Flashman, whose exploits from 1839-94 are chronicled in the series.

Flashman is of course completely fictional - but the settings and history of the events, and the people with whom he interacts are all largely based around historical events and individuals.Which is why he didn't chose (for example) Joe Louis for the Bismarck incident, as it would be ludicrous and make no sense at all to have Louis suddenly pop up in the 1840s. And of course Griffo wouldn't fit either.

If you look up the movie on IMDB, you'll find that the screenplay was written by Mr. Fraser - based on his own book.
- -So you admit Fraser well could know about Griffo such that the character of the fighter could well have been the likely choice for the portrayal.

I coulda written in the character of Griffo in my Ohenry novella had I wished, but he'd have been irrelevant to the historical backdrop I had Ohenry in, a historical boxing match he well could've covered while still Wiiliam Sydney Porter working for the Houston Post .

Thanks for the affirmation...
QueensburyRules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2019, 03:37 PM #10
Bundana Bundana is offline
Interim Champion
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 874
Quoted: 345 Post(s)
Rep Power: 12
Bundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond reputeBundana has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 14,438.39
Bank: 1,884.04
Total Points: 16,322.43
Default

I don't know, why I have to "admit" that Fraser knew about Griffo. If he knew boxing history he probably did.

What we're talking about, is whether or not Fraser used him as Bismarck's "opponent" in "Royal Flash" - which he didn't. He used John Gully, who was around in the 1840s, at the same time as Bismarck. Griffo wasn't born until 1869.
Bundana is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share This With Friends

Tags
-please, 19th, boxing, century, help!, obscure

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

 

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:59 PM.