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Old 04-28-2018, 09:15 AM #61
travestyny travestyny is offline
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Originally Posted by Lomasexual View Post
I was looking at the issue more from a global sense. When people think of problematic slavery, they think of America, and of white people being guilty.

I have heard some people say that, globally speaking, white people, and America, are no worse than many others, and were better than some - being one of the earlier major cultures to reject slavery.

I'm guessing that some people who put forth that position may be ones who simply want to excessively diminish the responsibility of past (white) American governments. Yet, if they are correct when they make their comparisons around global matters, then I would agree that the blame doesn't seem proportional.
Why do you believe the US was one of the earlier major cultures to reject slavery?

France abolished slavery in 1848
Britain's abolition of slavery act was in 1833
Spain abolished slavery in 1811
Portugal abolished it partially in 1819 and completely in 1858
Netherlands abolished slave trading in 1814 and abolished slavery in 1863

That's from a quick look, so I could be wrong...

but it seems of the major slave trading/participating nations, the US was one of the last, if not the last. I think the above nations were the biggest players int the Atlantic slave trade. Obviously most involved were white. But I can understand the sentiment that the focus is mostly on the United States. I think all of the above nations should have apologized for slavery and share in the blame.

America is always in the spotlight, so perhaps that has something to do with it. Either way, I see no problem with other countries which have taken part being blamed. All of these countries should have officially apologized by now.

And not really sure how we can say one nation was better than the other. Slavery everywhere seemed extremely brutal.
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Old 04-28-2018, 09:29 AM #62
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Originally Posted by travestyny View Post
Why do you believe the US was one of the earlier major cultures to reject
I didn't say I believed it.

It was something which I read, and being skeptical of many claims regarding race or any other social issues, I considered what was being said. Not because I accepted it, but because it was another viewpoint to explore the veracity of.

Hence my questions. I ask, I listen, perhaps I learn.
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Old 04-28-2018, 09:33 AM #63
travestyny travestyny is offline
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Originally Posted by Lomasexual View Post
I didn't say I believed it.

It was something which I read, and being skeptical of many claims regarding race or any other social issues, I considered what was being said. Not because I accepted it, but because it was another viewpoint to explore the veracity of.

Hence my questions. I ask, I listen, perhaps I learn.
I see. It's cool, man. I have some information about this stuff, but I'm still learning myself. I always appreciate the convo and it's nice to finally have a convo with someone about a serious and controversial topic without it getting heated or disrespectful. Much respect.
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Old 04-28-2018, 09:49 AM #64
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Originally Posted by travestyny View Post
I see. It's cool, man. I have some information about this stuff, but I'm still learning myself. I always appreciate the convo and it's nice to finally have a convo with someone about a serious and controversial topic without it getting heated or disrespectful. Much respect.
No worries. I think it is easy to keep things respectful and chill because I don't really have any skin in the game.

I'm from Australia, and we have our own share of problems and historical injustices - but slavery wasn't really a big part of our history.

So my interest is just as a fellow human being, and not as someone who wants to sway things one way or another, and I don't have the personal involvement to get heated.
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Old 04-28-2018, 09:54 AM #65
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Originally Posted by Lomasexual View Post
No worries. I think it is easy to keep things respectful and chill because I don't really have any skin in the game.

I'm from Australia, and we have our own share of problems and historical injustices - but slavery wasn't really a big part of our history.

So my interest is just as a fellow human being, and not as someone who wants to sway things one way or another, and I don't have the personal involvement to get heated.
I see. I've heard a little bit here and there about the treatment of aboriginal people in Australia, but I don't know too much about it. Would you say it's better nowadays? Are there still racist attitudes toward the aboriginal people?
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Old 04-28-2018, 11:38 AM #66
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JimRaynor, let me hear you on this one.

Ode to the slaves and folks who had to face Jim Crow:

I'm your nephew, yes it's true oh can't you hear me Uncle Sam
Can I sit upon your bended knee just like the other man?
Didn't I die in Vietnam and didn't I march in Birmingham?
I'm your nephew, yes it's true oh can't you hear me Uncle Sam



Didn't I sail the water against my every will?(Trans-Atlantic Slave trade)
Didn't I fetch that water when your bucket needed a refill? - (Slave labour)
Where was all the water when the fire was burning up the cross?- (Jim's and Adri's forefathers in the Klu Klux Klan burning the cross)
I'm your nephew too it's true oh hear me, Mr Boss


I've lived the life a citizen's supposed to
So why I gotta be the illegitimate nephew
Remember me, Uncle Sam? I fought your war
And went all out not knowing what I was fighting for

Sam? Why'd you let them rape my great grandmother?
Then go to the oak tree and hang her bro
ther
When Abe was slaving there wasn't a fuss
So where was you when they was in my yard burning the cross?
Do you love me or what, Uncle Sam, what is it?
You wanna maim me, you claim the grand wizard?
Let that pass and marched for a just cause
Then got uncivilized rights with unenforced laws
Passed your curriculum got a diploma
And can't get a job 'cause my skin has colour
You say things have changed between now and then
Now, I wanna know the difference between me and him?

Last edited by siablo14; 04-28-2018 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 04-28-2018, 11:40 AM #67
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Originally Posted by Cheek busting View Post
That's a dangerous, dangerous thing to say, mate.

You honestly think democracy should always rule regardless if it's an inherent human right (or violation thereof)?

I strongly disagree.

I think certain issues are guaranteed to a man at birth, and nothing can take those away.
Damn. What did Adri do this time?
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Old 04-28-2018, 11:56 PM #68
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I see. I've heard a little bit here and there about the treatment of aboriginal people in Australia, but I don't know too much about it. Would you say it's better nowadays? Are there still racist attitudes toward the aboriginal people?
I suppose it would all depend on who you ask.

From my point of view, I would say that it is absolutely better. But given how bad it was in the past, simply being better than that isn't saying much.

If you look back at how recently the indigenous australians were covered under the 'fauna and flora' Act, if you look at how recently they were not allowed to vote, if you look at the stolen generation (although take this with a pinch of salt - not everything claimed is true - but what can be established as factual is pretty bad). Then you can see that things were indeed worse in the recent past.

Nowadays the law doesn't mandate Aboriginal people be treated as less than human. It actually forbids it, which it should have done all along.

Rather than being banned from voting, money is being spent to engage Aboriginal people into getting involved in politics.

Rather than being thought of as useless savages, money is being spent through traineeship schemes, scholarships etc to encourage Aboriginal people into learning and excelling in whatever they want to do.

So yeah - it is better. Undeniably so.

But Aboriginal Australians are still in a pretty unfair situation. Poverty is rampant, as is substance abuse. They are over-represented in prisons. Their life expectancy is something like 20 years below the rest of the population. For most of the metrics that would measure how happy and well off a population is - the unhappy truth is that Indigenous Australians are coming last in almost all of them.

A lot of the wider population is unsympathetic. They resent the 'easy' money being thrown at the 'ungrateful, lazy and selfish whingers who can't let go of events from two hundred years ago'. You get the picture. This is far from being what the whole of Australia thinks, but it is a large enough minority of people that it is an embarrassment.

Some of them believe that equality means everyone is treated equally. So they resent government funding - like extra scholarships etc - based on race. They say that they don't want Aboriginals to be treated better or worse than anyone else.

I think I get where that last type of person is coming from. They have been repeatedly told that equality is about everyone being treated the same, and get confused about what they see as special treatment for some groups. So they may not be racists per se, but I don't think their perspective is helpful.

From my perspective, when you look at the bigger picture, I see that one group has been horribly disadvantaged by policies aimed at them as a racial group. I can't see any way to undo that or mitigate that without more policies aimed at that same racial group. Which might mean policies which seem unequal, but are aimed at restoring equality.

When the indigenous population has the same opportunities, and this is shown through things like them having the same educational outcomes, or average incomes, or average lifespans, same averages for health and psychological wellbeing, same representation in the justice system - when things are equal, then perhaps there is an argument for stopping the extra spending on Aboriginal Australians.

Until then, we have a lot more work to do.
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Old 04-29-2018, 12:05 AM #69
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Old 04-29-2018, 12:06 AM #70
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Originally Posted by DramaShow View Post
sad sad people. theyve got one life on this planet and they are wasting it by getting themselves worked up about what some dead guy did 200 years ago
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what happened to students spending there years at uni drinking and shagging? got to be the msot boring ****ing generation going lol
yea how dare they care about history..lets just pretend it never happened..Do I agree with this??? no..but do I disagree with it??? HELL NO!!!!
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