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View Poll Results: Why do fans not care about Canelo testing positive for PEDs and being suspended?
He was never dirty 13 28.89%
Time goes on, I forgave him - like him the same or better now 7 15.56%
Never cared if he was dirty or not 6 13.33%
Always hated him anyway 6 13.33%
I am not as big of a fan as his now as I was before 13 28.89%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-10-2019, 04:07 PM #81
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Dayummmmz, errrrr one talkin bout Canelo all day errrrday

WAR CANELO. WAR APPRECIATION
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Old 05-10-2019, 04:58 PM #82
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Originally Posted by ShoulderRoll View Post
He gave a plausible reason why the tests came up negative. And he served his punishment regardless.

Now he's doing 24/7 365 VADA testing in an effort to make things right.

And he's fighting at an even higher level while clean than when he was while supposedly enhanced.
Good post, thanks for your thoughts.
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Old 05-10-2019, 05:13 PM #83
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Originally Posted by Bjl12 View Post
No he didnt. Danny looked bad against Arias and Sulecki, but looked great against Dervenchenko



...Kell Brook is a WELTERWEIGHT. And Canelo almost - literally - KILLED Khan. Notice how nobody brings up either of those fights when evaluating power?

Weight classes exist for a reason



Neither Rosado, Monroe Jr., or Lemieux are "good fighters". Those three are all essentially gatekeepers. Notice how NONE of then have EVER been a champion? In todays era of 4+ belts owr weight class...its not rocket science to win a belt.



GGG clearly has power. Canelo - who is an elite fighter - said he had power, but stopping Lemieux, Steven's, Rosado, Proksa, or Murray doesnt mean "wow, what power".

Remember Matthyse and Bute and Charlo brothers stop most people they fight...it just so happens most people they fight are severely overmatched.

Charlo literally has 1-2 fights worth discussing...an unimpressive decision against and a stoppage of Julian William's. That doesnt mean his power is like young Mike Tyson. It just means most of the time he can get lesser fighters out of there...which is what hes done so far in his career...only fighting LESSER fighters though.

When Matthyse and Bute stepped up they experienced the same thing...power went from extraordinary to...slightly above ordinary.

Deontay Wilder is a horrible boxer. Just because he has a lot of 1 punch KOs does not mean his power is legendary. Fury and Ortiz are good HWs today, but they would not have been remotely relevant during the 90's. Wilder would not have survived the 90s. Wilder KOing or KDing lesser fighters does not make his power anything more than what it is - acute, fast, but relatively unproven (I rate Fury and Ortiz both C level fighters...they would be gatekeepers if HW wasnt so bad)
- I don't think Danny looked good at all against Dervy - and Dervy showed he was about as good as Jack Culcay anyway. Not exactly the monster people were making him out to be.

- With all due respect, Canelo hit Khan with one shot, and it's Khan - he has a glass jaw and Canelo is legitimately a weight class or two bigger than him. Everyone expected Canelo to KO Khan. No one thought GGG would break Brook's face and basically end his career. And Brook was in his prime and Khan was not as well.

Just give credit where it is due lol. That was different levels of damage there, and size-wise Brook and GGG were not very different also. Brook was cutting more weight for that fight than GGG.

- Lemieux was most certainly a champion. I will excuse your thoughts from now on regarding GGG as mostly ignorance, as I just don't think you have really done your research on GGG or most of the guys he has faced.

And I brought up those 3 guys to show the damage GGG did to them - relative to what damage anyone else did to them in their career. They were far (especially Rosado) from the best guys GGG faced and KOed in his career anyway.

- GGG would have KOed everyone on Canelo's resume - the only two who I would say no or probably not to are Lara and Mayweather (especially in the circumstances Canelo fought Floyd - before Canelo's prime, at a less than ideal weight). But everyone else doesn't go 12 rounds with GGG, that's pretty clear.

- Canelo would probably beat most guys on GGG's resume, if a prime Canelo faced them when GGG fought them. But I think out of (when GGG fought them) Stevens, Lemieux, Monroe, Murray, Brook, Ouma, and maybe even Ishida, he has a few 12 round fights and probably a couple of those guys give him real trouble. Probably Monroe and Murray.

Speaking of Ishida - what do you make of the fact that both Pirog and Paul Williams went 12 rounds with him, but GGG KOed him in 3 rounds? That doesn't tell you anything, truly?

- Btw - Bute was literally KOing not very good guys, as was Charlo. GGG was KOing guys with a name that weren't used to getting KOed. It doesn't mean you need to put a GGG poster up in your room but the circumstances are far different and people should give credit where it is due.

- I agree on Charlo - and when he finally stepped up to just a decent fighter he didn't KO him. GGG fought 12 or so guys on the level of Korobov and he dominated and KOed every single one of them.

- I don't think Fury or Ortiz are that bad. They can both box and would present problems to anyone they face, and I am not a Wilder fan. I think they are probably a lot better when they use PEDs though. So I don't have a ton of respect for them as well.
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Old 05-10-2019, 08:19 PM #84
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Originally Posted by Eff Pandas View Post
I don't think it has as much to do with no know caring about Canelo using banned substances as much as no one realllllllllly caring about boxers using banned substances.

Certainly I think its a fact that people don't care about banned substances THAT much.

I've been saying the last few weeks that anyone thinking Big Baby's career is over is f#cking nuts cuz this sh^t has always blown over for name boxers. Hell even lesser named guys don't get much damage from banned substance usage.
That's pretty much it.

Nobody really cares. People make a fuss for a few days after it happens then it gets forgotten about. Look at Ortiz, he has failed 3 test and people were still willing him to take the AJ fight and make millions in the process, missing the irony that a drugs cheat would be replacing another one, but nobody cared. People would simply rather see top names fight each other, cheat or not.

Miller's career won't be over. It'll all die down and he'll be fighting again this year. You will have small pockets of people on forums calling him a PED cheat, which has no impact on anything.

If anything, apart from losing the AJ fight and the purse, he's probably become more well known off the back of it. Hearn might not be so willing to put him on his shows but PBC will have no problem capitalising on his new found fame, getting him fights and probably get him in line for a Wilder fight because he has a bit of a name now.
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Old 05-10-2019, 09:38 PM #85
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Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post
- I don't think Danny looked good at all against Dervy - and Dervy showed he was about as good as Jack Culcay anyway. Not exactly the monster people were making him out to be.
Yeah we'll disagree on basically everything you said

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post
- With all due respect, Canelo hit Khan with one shot, and it's Khan - he has a glass jaw and Canelo is legitimately a weight class or two bigger than him. Everyone expected Canelo to KO Khan.
Yeah it was a poor fight from the announcement. Allegedly it was to help build Canelo's global appeal with european audience. Nonetheless the outcome was pretty much pre-determined.

Lame fight


Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post
No one thought GGG would break Brook's face and basically end his career. And Brook was in his prime and Khan was not as well.
Are you on drugs boy?

https://www.boxingscene.com/forums/s...light=Golovkin

274 voted in that poll

222 picked GGG to win (81%)

210 picked GGG to win by KO/TKO (77%)

GGG was a -600 betting favorite against Brook

[Link View Has Been Removed. Click Here To Unlock This Content.]

Meanwhile Canelo was a -400 betting favorite against Khan

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post
Just give credit where it is due lol.
Well your ****** ass literally just said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post
Everyone expected Canelo to KO Khan.
And then you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post
No one thought GGG would break Brook's face and basically end his career.
Finally you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post
Just give credit where it is due lol.
Canelo was a SMALLER favorite to beat Khan and Gennady was a LARGER favorite to beat Brook. Yet according to you GGG deserves full credit fighting a Welterweight at 160 and Canelo deserves no credit for fighting a Welterweight at 155.

As usual...I demolish #BoratLogic

Too easy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post
That was different levels of damage there, and size-wise Brook and GGG were not very different also. Brook was cutting more weight for that fight than GGG.
Well there's no way to objectively measure what happened.

Brook did well in his next fight against Spencer...fight was 4-4 after 8 rounds. Brook gassed after that because he was jumping up/down 2 weight classes.

I don't think Khan has ever looked good since Danny Garcia tbh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post
- Lemieux was most certainly a champion. I will excuse your thoughts from now on regarding GGG as mostly ignorance, as I just don't think you have really done your research on GGG or most of the guys he has faced.
Lemiuex is one of five GGG opponent's to ever be champion. That is correct. I can write them all out for you if you'd like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post
- GGG would have KOed everyone on Canelo's resume - the only two who I would say no or probably not to are Lara and Mayweather (especially in the circumstances Canelo fought Floyd - before Canelo's prime, at a less than ideal weight). But everyone else doesn't go 12 rounds with GGG, that's pretty clear.
We'll never know. Styles make fights. Also Canelo took some catchweight fights and, before GGG turned 37, he was against Catchweights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post
- Canelo would probably beat most guys on GGG's resume, if a prime Canelo faced them when GGG fought them. But I think out of (when GGG fought them) Stevens, Lemieux, Monroe, Murray, Brook, Ouma, and maybe even Ishida, he has a few 12 round fights and probably a couple of those guys give him real trouble. Probably Monroe and Murray.
Very possible. Styles make fights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post
Speaking of Ishida - what do you make of the fact that both Pirog and Paul Williams went 12 rounds with him, but GGG KOed him in 3 rounds? That doesn't tell you anything, truly?
Funny you say the version of Khan that fought Canelo was washed up...but the version of Ishida who lost to Paul Williams and Pirog was somehow prime and fresh for GGG?

#BoratLogic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post
- Btw - Bute was literally KOing not very good guys, as was Charlo. GGG was KOing guys with a name that weren't used to getting KOed. It doesn't mean you need to put a GGG poster up in your room but the circumstances are far different and people should give credit where it is due.
GGG was KOing the same caliber of opponent as Bute and Charlo or Wilder. Same thing.
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Old 05-10-2019, 09:43 PM #86
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People just move on
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Old 05-10-2019, 10:02 PM #87
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Originally Posted by Bjl12 View Post


Canelo was a SMALLER favorite to beat Khan and Gennady was a LARGER favorite to beat Brook. Yet according to you GGG deserves full credit fighting a Welterweight at 160 and Canelo deserves no credit for fighting a Welterweight at 155.




We'll never know. Styles make fights. Also Canelo took some catchweight fights and, before GGG turned 37, he was against Catchweights.



Very possible. Styles make fights.



Funny you say the version of Khan that fought Canelo was washed up...but the version of Ishida who lost to Paul Williams and Pirog was somehow prime and fresh for GGG?

#BoratLogic



GGG was KOing the same caliber of opponent as Bute and Charlo or Wilder. Same thing.
Ishida literally fought GGG right after Pirog and Williams lol. But I'm sure you will double down on this and everything else because the facts don't matter to you (and others), it's all about the narrative and what you 'want' to be true.

Ishida KOed Kirkland in 1 round 2 years before the GGG fight, btw. I'm sure you knew that.

Yeah GGG was a bigger favorite because he is better, I agree with you there. Good point.

Never said no one expected GGG to win - said no one expected him to basically end Brook's career. Also Khan's best weight is 140 and Brook's may be 154. If you disagree that is up to you - but I think they are basically around those natural weights.

Whatever helps you sleep at night man. As you basically admitted, I don't think Canelo KOs everyone on GGG's KO list, and I am fairly certain GGG KOs everyone on Canelo's except maybe Mayweather and maybe Lara.

I think GGG is pretty clearly better than Canelo, in almost every way. But I give Canelo credit where it is due. He is a great fighter and has some attributes that are better than GGG imo.

The difference between us is I am analyzing both guys based on what I see from them in the ring, you are giving your story with your mind already made up. You are trying to twist everything to make it suit your worldview that Canelo is better - and go ahead I'm not mad at you, but I can never think you keep it real as a boxing analyst.

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Old 05-10-2019, 10:10 PM #88
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Originally Posted by Socialtwinkie View Post
GGGs power is overrated and criminally incorrect. He doesnt have one punch KO power like a lot of people thinks he does. His power comes from combinations and awkward punching angles. Combine that with his high punch output and a granite chin and he will eventually wear you down.

Now that's not saying GGG doesnt have any power. If one punch KO power is a ten hes probably a very solid 8 maybe 8.5. Canelo is pretty close. The only punch that he really throws that snaps is his jab. The rest are generated through elastic recoil. You've seen it over and over. Wide hooks with unpredictable angles that just thud his opponents.

But again. Like you said it's tough to be 100% accurate because hes never face top opposition until the age when most boxers decline.
I believe Canelo said GGG had power of 8/10 or even 9/10 in between their first fight and rematch.

So we know the power is there. Danny also said GGG is strong, but he didn't glamous GGG's power.

Definitely power there, but remember most elite fights DO NOT end in KO/TKO. Sometimes a KD though
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Old 05-10-2019, 10:28 PM #89
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Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post
Ishida literally fought GGG right after Pirog and Williams lol. But I'm sure you will double down on this and everything else because the facts don't matter to you (and others), it's all about the narrative and what you 'want' to be true.

Ishida KOed Kirkland in 1 round 2 years before the GGG fight, btw. I'm sure you knew that.
I'm no expert on Ishida. I don't follow most low level guys.

Kirkland is also a low level guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post
Yeah GGG was a bigger favorite because he is better, I agree with you there. Good point.
It was also the weight. Khan was moving up 8 pounds to Brook's 13. GGG had always been a MW, was undefeated, and looked immortal at the time (albeit with lower level opposition).

Nonetheless Canelo and Golovkin were strong favorites.

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Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post
Never said no one expected GGG to win - said no one expected him to basically end Brook's career. Also Khan's best weight is 140 and Brook's may be 154. If you disagree that is up to you - but I think they are basically around those natural weights.
I'm not going to look back at indivudal quotes. Most people acknowledge moving up/down 1-2 weight classes against "the guy" in the division can be a dangerous career move.

Chad Dawson got ruined by Andre Ward (LHW to SMW)

Pavlik got ruined by BHop (MW to SMW)

Hatton got ruined by Floyd (JWW to WW)

DLH got ruined by Manny (JMW to WW)

Rigo got ruined by Loma (JFW to FW)

When you move up/down 1 weight class to fight "the guy" it is a testament of character and confidence. However, with great reward comes great risk. And in all of the above scenarios the loser experienced significant changes in their career for the worse.

Kell Brook jumped to MW (moved up 2 weight classes) for GGG and lost in bad fashion, but not ruined.

Dropped back to 147 (dropping 2 weight classes) to fight Errald Spencer. Again - that fight was 4-4 after 8 rounds. When you move up and down weight classes..your stamina takes a hit. Kell gassed and Errald jumped on him.

I don't think either of those fights individually ruined Kell, but the two combined took a lot out of him. Mostly his confidence if you ask me. Back to back losses, back to back stoppages, back to back reconstructive surgery...and he was in both fights for as long as they went.

Brook was a boss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post
Whatever helps you sleep at night man. As you basically admitted, I don't think Canelo KOs everyone on GGG's KO list, and I am fairly certain GGG KOs everyone on Canelo's except maybe Mayweather and maybe Lara.
Ya styles make fights. Who knows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post
I think GGG is pretty clearly better than Canelo, in almost every way. But I give Canelo credit where it is due. He is a great fighter and has some attributes that are better than GGG imo.
We disagree. Canelo fighting at MW was his 3rd weight class. He drew in the 1st fight and won in the 2nd fight.

Canelo legitimately fought at 155 for years and was considered "the guy" at JMW. When "B" side GGG called him out and refused to go down 1 pound...I thought to myself "he doesn't really want the fight".

And GGG didn't. He was on record refusing catchweights any time it could hurt him (refused Cotto, Canelo, and Brook), but was for catchweights against when it could benefit him (Andre Ward at 164...even though he would fight Froch or JCC Jr at 168).

GGG is a prima donna. Some people just don't see things for what they are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxing1013 View Post
The difference between us is I am analyzing both guys based on what I see from them in the ring, you are giving your story with your mind already made up. You are trying to twist everything to make it suit your worldview that Canelo is better - and go ahead I'm not mad at you, but I can never think you keep it real as a boxing analyst.
In all of our discussions I've had to correct you with objective information.

You said GGG landed more punches and had better defense.

Compubox from both fights shows GGG threw 200+ more punches and landed less power punches in BOTH fights. GGG did land more jabs.

That's objective and measurable.

You said that Canelo's win over Khan was "expected" and that "nobody expected GGG to break Brook's face". In reality GGG was a larger favorite to beat Brook (BY KO/TKO) than Canelo was over Khan.

Again - that's objective.

I've twisted nothing. I just don't have a Muslin Asian-European dick in my ass
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Old 05-10-2019, 10:51 PM #90
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Originally Posted by Bjl12 View Post
I'm no expert on Ishida. I don't follow most low level guys.

Kirkland is also a low level guy.



It was also the weight. Khan was moving up 8 pounds to Brook's 13. GGG had always been a MW, was undefeated, and looked immortal at the time (albeit with lower level opposition).

Nonetheless Canelo and Golovkin were strong favorites.



I'm not going to look back at indivudal quotes. Most people acknowledge moving up/down 1-2 weight classes against "the guy" in the division can be a dangerous career move.

Chad Dawson got ruined by Andre Ward (LHW to SMW)

Pavlik got ruined by BHop (MW to SMW)

Hatton got ruined by Floyd (JWW to WW)

DLH got ruined by Manny (JMW to WW)

Rigo got ruined by Loma (JFW to FW)

When you move up/down 1 weight class to fight "the guy" it is a testament of character and confidence. However, with great reward comes great risk. And in all of the above scenarios the loser experienced significant changes in their career for the worse.

Kell Brook jumped to MW (moved up 2 weight classes) for GGG and lost in bad fashion, but not ruined.

Dropped back to 147 (dropping 2 weight classes) to fight Errald Spencer. Again - that fight was 4-4 after 8 rounds. When you move up and down weight classes..your stamina takes a hit. Kell gassed and Errald jumped on him.

I don't think either of those fights individually ruined Kell, but the two combined took a lot out of him. Mostly his confidence if you ask me. Back to back losses, back to back stoppages, back to back reconstructive surgery...and he was in both fights for as long as they went.

Brook was a boss.



Ya styles make fights. Who knows?



We disagree. Canelo fighting at MW was his 3rd weight class. He drew in the 1st fight and won in the 2nd fight.

Canelo legitimately fought at 155 for years and was considered "the guy" at JMW. When "B" side GGG called him out and refused to go down 1 pound...I thought to myself "he doesn't really want the fight".

And GGG didn't. He was on record refusing catchweights any time it could hurt him (refused Cotto, Canelo, and Brook), but was for catchweights against when it could benefit him (Andre Ward at 164...even though he would fight Froch or JCC Jr at 168).

GGG is a prima donna. Some people just don't see things for what they are.



In all of our discussions I've had to correct you with objective information.

You said GGG landed more punches and had better defense.

Compubox from both fights shows GGG threw 200+ more punches and landed less power punches in BOTH fights. GGG did land more jabs.

That's objective and measurable.

You said that Canelo's win over Khan was "expected" and that "nobody expected GGG to break Brook's face". In reality GGG was a larger favorite to beat Brook (BY KO/TKO) than Canelo was over Khan.

Again - that's objective.

I've twisted nothing. I just don't have a Muslin Asian-European dick in my ass
On Ishida - wasn't the point - the point was GGG destroyed him in 3 while Williams and Pirog couldn't hurt him. The start of our discussion was about GGG's prowess as a puncher. What he did to Ishida, relative to Williams and Pirog, is evidence of his punching power.

And to be honest - I think one of GGG's best attributes is the ability to dispatch of someone not on his (very high) level. It's not even really his punching power. Just the fact that if you don't have anything to keep him honest, he will roll over you. It is impressive, especially against guys who no one else can do it to.

On Brook - the point was that GGG's punching power, the whole point of this discussion, broke the man's face. You compared it to Canelo KOing Khan, who I would expect most people to acknowledge was a KO waiting to happen in that fight.

No one is saying GGG wasn't a heavy favorite - that was never what our discussion was - the point in mentioning the Brook fight is in using it as an example of GGG's punching power.

GGG did land more punches against Canelo, in both fights, in almost every round. I never said he had better defense, although his defense is very good. He has never been hurt before really, and blocks a lot of punches on the arms or gloves. When a man's jab is snapping the other guy's neck back I tend to include that as a 'power punch' but it doesn't really matter. It is certainly a scoring punch.

Canelo has very good defense and I would say as a counter puncher he is naturally focusing on his defense more than GGG, who is almost willing to take one to give one sometimes to get a guy to open up.

As far as the weight negotiations - GGG knew his role for the most part as the A side or B side. For Froch and Chavez he was the B side. For Ward he was the A side. Negotiating on weight is part of that.

He was the clear B side with Floyd and Manny and would probably have gladly gone to 154 to get that payday.

You could argue he should have gone down to face Canelo, or Cotto, as he was the clear B side there as well. But I think his perspective there was that Cotto and Canelo were already fighting at MW, so they should fight him at MW.

I think the public opinion at that time helped him. It certainly seemed like Canelo was avoiding that fight, so GGG had more leverage. I agree he could have negotiated some there on weight but again I think he looked at Canelo as his equal and said - you fight at MW, we will fight at 160 when we fight. And most people sided with GGG on that so it forced Canelo's hand.

Honestly man it's nothing personal - I like Canelo and I like how passionate his fans are about him. But I don't think they really objectively analyze his career or GGG's, or those fights, and that's fine.

If they fight again and I have Canelo winning legitimately I will admit it loudly. I also will point out that I had Canelo beating Lara 7-5 and Jacobs 7-5 or 8-4. Neither fight was very controversial to me. I think he is a great fighter and has improved a lot, which is saying something considering he has always been very good. His knee situation does worry me now though.

Last edited by Jalen Rose; 05-10-2019 at 10:58 PM.
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