Boxing Forum
Navigation
Go Back   Boxing Forum > Boxing Forums > Non Stop Boxing

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-02-2017, 01:59 AM #181
billeau2 billeau2 is offline
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,422
Quoted: 1348 Post(s)
Rep Power: 19
billeau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 2,100,315,176.36
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 2,100,315,176.36
Grade A explanation of punching technique. - - Ram Raid - Knowledgeable - -Weltschmerz- Happy holidays and best wishes for 2016 - -Weltschmerz- Lmao - -Scott-Weiland- 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slipcatchroll View Post
Oscar De La Hoya was as close to his prime as he was going to get , experienced, healthy and certainly in the classification of a 'great' fighter (resume and skill wise) yet his win is always disputed.

If you can't define what constitutes a great fighter in his prime is then the whole argument is nonsensical anyway.
Lets say for the sake of argument...because its not true lol...that De La Hoya was at his best when he fought Floyd. So Floyd would then have a close win over a fighter who makes the ATG list towards the bottom... because De La Hoya is a debatable entry onto that list at Best!

Lets compare that with Andre Ward who has fought the best guys in his division, some of whom are arguably on a par with De La Hoya, and outclassed them. Thats the difference. Froch didn't get beat by ward in a cat and mouse fight where he stopped being effective (De La Hoya was jabbing Floyd early and succefully). No!! Froch was taken apart, as Kessler was and then Ward beat a man going up in weight who was supposed to be the new big puncher.

Ward does what an ATG fighter is supposed to do. Roy Jones didn't beat James Toney, he took him apart! Mayweather has never had that type of performance against a fighter of the same calibre. Yes hes a great fighter, at 130 - 135, and t would have been great to see him against another great light weight.

Its just a straw man when people talk about fighters like margarito. the fact of the matter is Floyd bares a similarity to Calzighe in that he never fought competition that would show he was a step up from other great fighters in his prime division...Im not blaming him, maybe it wasnt possible!
billeau2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Advertisements
>>>TO REMOVE THESE ADS, PLEASE REGISTER HERE FOR FREE<<<
Old 09-02-2017, 02:04 AM #182
Floyd is TBE Floyd is TBE is offline
Interim Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 927
Quoted: 506 Post(s)
Rep Power: 4
Floyd is TBE has a reputation beyond reputeFloyd is TBE has a reputation beyond reputeFloyd is TBE has a reputation beyond reputeFloyd is TBE has a reputation beyond reputeFloyd is TBE has a reputation beyond reputeFloyd is TBE has a reputation beyond reputeFloyd is TBE has a reputation beyond reputeFloyd is TBE has a reputation beyond reputeFloyd is TBE has a reputation beyond reputeFloyd is TBE has a reputation beyond reputeFloyd is TBE has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 9,743.87
Bank: 2,164,744,764,707.98
Total Points: 2,164,744,774,451.85
Default

The funny thing about known Pac fanboys like Kellerman making this argument is that Pac spent most of his welterweight career fighting Floyd's leftovers and at catchweights most of the times.
Floyd is TBE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2017, 02:17 AM #183
slipcatchroll slipcatchroll is offline
Contender
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 249
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Rep Power: 4
slipcatchroll is a jewel in the roughslipcatchroll is a jewel in the roughslipcatchroll is a jewel in the rough
Points: 25,848.37
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 25,848.37
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billeau2 View Post
Lets say for the sake of argument...because its not true lol...that De La Hoya was at his best when he fought Floyd. So Floyd would then have a close win over a fighter who makes the ATG list towards the bottom... because De La Hoya is a debatable entry onto that list at Best!

Lets compare that with Andre Ward who has fought the best guys in his division, some of whom are arguably on a par with De La Hoya, and outclassed them. Thats the difference. Froch didn't get beat by ward in a cat and mouse fight where he stopped being effective (De La Hoya was jabbing Floyd early and succefully). No!! Froch was taken apart, as Kessler was and then Ward beat a man going up in weight who was supposed to be the new big puncher.

Ward does what an ATG fighter is supposed to do. Roy Jones didn't beat James Toney, he took him apart! Mayweather has never had that type of performance against a fighter of the same calibre. Yes hes a great fighter, at 130 - 135, and t would have been great to see him against another great light weight.

Its just a straw man when people talk about fighters like margarito. the fact of the matter is Floyd bares a similarity to Calzighe in that he never fought competition that would show he was a step up from other great fighters in his prime division...Im not blaming him, maybe it wasnt possible!
The fallacy in your boxing IQ cuts deep on so many levels it's ridiculous. Floyd adjusted, partially, by taking away De La Hoya's jab while Ward dominated Froch by making no adjustments at all and you wanna use Froch as a shining example of Ward's greatness.
Then you quote Kovalev as being the 'boogeyman' puncher that Ward beat as a great prime fighter yet refuse to acknowledge De La Hoya (more accomplished - facts).
slipcatchroll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2017, 02:21 AM #184
JK1700 JK1700 is offline
Boxing Virtuoso
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: England
Age: 24
Posts: 4,816
Quoted: 508 Post(s)
Rep Power: 20
JK1700 has a reputation beyond reputeJK1700 has a reputation beyond reputeJK1700 has a reputation beyond reputeJK1700 has a reputation beyond reputeJK1700 has a reputation beyond reputeJK1700 has a reputation beyond reputeJK1700 has a reputation beyond reputeJK1700 has a reputation beyond reputeJK1700 has a reputation beyond reputeJK1700 has a reputation beyond reputeJK1700 has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 29,280.79
Bank: 70,008,204,724,166,377,472.00
Total Points: 70,008,204,724,166,410,240.00
keep up the good work champ - Atreyu Khalil Cheers! - dan_cov Cheers mate - Chrismart Cheers - BoxingIsGreat Much respect, homie!!! - travestyny 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maracho View Post
Right no one complains about them guys because once or twice gets the benefit of the doubt. There is a reason that fans dislike Floyd's actions but he don't care , hes not all there, he also thrives on the social dysfunction partly because that's mostly what he grew up around. People pay more to see him lose than anyone in recent history, including Gorgeous George and calls it thug cred as he Giggles to the bank, etc
You're a troll for claiming he ducked guys two weight classes above him when he had already moved up 5 weight classes, you want him to move up 7? SMH. This has become a really tedious debate with you i'm done because it's like beating a dead horse. Floyd's the best of the last 20-30 years and has the best resume, certainly of the last 20 years maybe longer. He's like 27-0 vs world champs.
JK1700 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2017, 02:34 AM #185
billeau2 billeau2 is offline
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,422
Quoted: 1348 Post(s)
Rep Power: 19
billeau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond reputebilleau2 has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 2,100,315,176.36
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 2,100,315,176.36
Grade A explanation of punching technique. - - Ram Raid - Knowledgeable - -Weltschmerz- Happy holidays and best wishes for 2016 - -Weltschmerz- Lmao - -Scott-Weiland- 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slipcatchroll View Post
The fallacy in your boxing IQ cuts deep on so many levels it's ridiculous. Floyd adjusted, partially, by taking away De La Hoya's jab while Ward dominated Froch by making no adjustments at all and you wanna use Froch as a shining example of Ward's greatness.
Then you quote Kovalev as being the 'boogeyman' puncher that Ward beat as a great prime fighter yet refuse to acknowledge De La Hoya (more accomplished - facts).
You know how stupid you look when you misread the point of the post and make a comment about intellect?
Image View Removed. Please Click Here.


There are threads here that attest to ambivalence regarding how good Oscar was. Hes not by any stretch a super elite fighter, he may sneak in as an ATG. Ward fought guys who are excellent fighters, some of whom may turn out to be on a par with De La Hoya (Kovalev, Froch perhaps even). Whether Floyd made an adjustment is immaterial. Ward dominated the best in his respective weight class, and at their best.

And...lets remember that your the retard who said the De La Hoya facing May was near his best...thats truly something that should make one question boxing IQ lol. I gave that to you, and if you think about it its a ridiculous thing to say.

So whether Froch, Dawson, Kovalev, made adjustments is immaterial! Whether the barn burns down, or the barbq is fired up, roast pigs means roast pork...figure that one out IQ master.
billeau2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2017, 02:50 AM #186
slipcatchroll slipcatchroll is offline
Contender
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 249
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Rep Power: 4
slipcatchroll is a jewel in the roughslipcatchroll is a jewel in the roughslipcatchroll is a jewel in the rough
Points: 25,848.37
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 25,848.37
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billeau2 View Post
You know how stupid you look when you misread the point of the post and make a comment about intellect?
Image View Removed. Please Click Here.


There are threads here that attest to ambivalence regarding how good Oscar was. Hes not by any stretch a super elite fighter, he may sneak in as an ATG. Ward fought guys who are excellent fighters, some of whom may turn out to be on a par with De La Hoya (Kovalev, Froch perhaps even). Whether Floyd made an adjustment is immaterial. Ward dominated the best in his respective weight class, and at their best.

And...lets remember that your the retard who said the De La Hoya facing May was near his best...thats truly something that should make one question boxing IQ lol. I gave that to you, and if you think about it its a ridiculous thing to say.

So whether Froch, Dawson, Kovalev, made adjustments is immaterial! Whether the barn burns down, or the barbq is fired up, roast pigs means roast pork...figure that one out IQ master.
Let me tell you this. The ability to adjust is one of the most important assets to have in a ring. It's why fighters like Roberto Duran and FMJ are heralded and it's a key measuring stick in figuring out how well a boxer does against an opponent.

Oscar not being able to adjust only shows how great Floyd is in comparison to other ATGs. But we can look through history and see that Oscar clearly adjusts to his opponents well (Felix/Vargas). Since you brought up Froch and decided to compare him to Oscar please tell me any fight Froch has adapted well? If not then could you please enlighten me on what traits/skills Froch possesses that make him superior to Oscar?

If not. Nonsensical.
slipcatchroll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2017, 04:14 AM #187
maracho maracho is offline
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,222
Quoted: 768 Post(s)
Rep Power: 8
maracho has much to be proud ofmaracho has much to be proud ofmaracho has much to be proud ofmaracho has much to be proud ofmaracho has much to be proud ofmaracho has much to be proud ofmaracho has much to be proud ofmaracho has much to be proud of
Points: 10,001,032,334.02
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 10,001,032,334.02
First Rate Poster - ironmt 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JK1700 View Post
You're a troll for claiming he ducked guys two weight classes above him when he had already moved up 5 weight classes, you want him to move up 7? SMH. This has become a really tedious debate with you i'm done because it's like beating a dead horse. Floyd's the best of the last 20-30 years and has the best resume, certainly of the last 20 years maybe longer. He's like 27-0 vs world champs.
So now you're saying Floyd didnt grow after he turned pro at 19 years of age? I guess its possible but what is interesting is that from the age of 25 to 30, Floyd (ala Broner and probably several other boxers under Mayweather promotions) had some huge growth spurts from 130 lbs to over 150 lbs, which doesnt seem natural for a top conditioned and finely cut adult athlete.

Anyway, at Super featherweight, Floyd doesnt even attempt to fight Barrera or Morales. At Jr. Lightweight Floyd vacated rather than fight Morales, Barrerra, and Frietas. Maybe it had to do with Morales running him out of Big Bear.

At Lightweight Floyd should of fought Stevie Johnson and Spadafora instead of Ndou and Sosa.

At light welter, Floyd fought Gatti and some dude named Bruseles but should have fought Kostya Tszyu and Cotto

Floyd then moved up to Welter and fought Baldimir but skipped Margarito, Pacman, Mosley, Bradley, Cotto, etc…while they were prime. He did called out Winky Wright but then ran for the hills when Winky called his bluff.

Floyd then moved up to Light Middle to fight ol Oscar but soon moved back down to finally fight Mosley and a lil Ricky Hatton who recently had to wrassle with all his might against Urango and Collazzo.

Floyd then moves back up to light Middle to fight a recently war torn Cotto and weight-drained Alvarez but avoids Lara, Martinez, GGG.

At Jr. Middleweight Floyd held the WBA, WBC and Ring champion but is literally the only unified champ in any division in boxing history who refuses to defend his belts on the grounds that the other guy is “too big”. For instance, Floyd said he was the TBE at 154 yet insisted that Martinez come down to 150 and still ended up a duck. They should have stripped those titles much quicker than they did.

Bottom line, the TBEs of boxing often went up to fight way bigger weight discrepancies than Floyd did

Last edited by maracho; 09-02-2017 at 04:17 AM.
maracho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2017, 06:14 AM #188
Thraxox Thraxox is online now
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 4,468
Quoted: 3251 Post(s)
Rep Power: 13
Thraxox has a reputation beyond reputeThraxox has a reputation beyond reputeThraxox has a reputation beyond reputeThraxox has a reputation beyond reputeThraxox has a reputation beyond reputeThraxox has a reputation beyond reputeThraxox has a reputation beyond reputeThraxox has a reputation beyond reputeThraxox has a reputation beyond reputeThraxox has a reputation beyond reputeThraxox has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 628,979,285.37
Bank: 4,454,452.29
Total Points: 633,433,737.66
You have some nice nipples there. - Vegemil First Rate Poster - ironmt Use a small dildo you Butthurt pac turd - Robbie Barrett Continually making great posts - ironmt 
AIDS/HIV - DARE - DUI Awareness - Epidermolysis Bullosa - Heart Disease - Lymphoma - MADD - Substance Abuse - Willy Wanker 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maracho View Post
So now you're saying Floyd didnt grow after he turned pro at 19 years of age? I guess its possible but what is interesting is that from the age of 25 to 30, Floyd (ala Broner and probably several other boxers under Mayweather promotions) had some huge growth spurts from 130 lbs to over 150 lbs, which doesnt seem natural for a top conditioned and finely cut adult athlete.

Anyway, at Super featherweight, Floyd doesnt even attempt to fight Barrera or Morales. At Jr. Lightweight Floyd vacated rather than fight Morales, Barrerra, and Frietas. Maybe it had to do with Morales running him out of Big Bear.

At Lightweight Floyd should of fought Stevie Johnson and Spadafora instead of Ndou and Sosa.

At light welter, Floyd fought Gatti and some dude named Bruseles but should have fought Kostya Tszyu and Cotto

Floyd then moved up to Welter and fought Baldimir but skipped Margarito, Pacman, Mosley, Bradley, Cotto, etc…while they were prime. He did called out Winky Wright but then ran for the hills when Winky called his bluff.

Floyd then moved up to Light Middle to fight ol Oscar but soon moved back down to finally fight Mosley and a lil Ricky Hatton who recently had to wrassle with all his might against Urango and Collazzo.

Floyd then moves back up to light Middle to fight a recently war torn Cotto and weight-drained Alvarez but avoids Lara, Martinez, GGG.

At Jr. Middleweight Floyd held the WBA, WBC and Ring champion but is literally the only unified champ in any division in boxing history who refuses to defend his belts on the grounds that the other guy is “too big”. For instance, Floyd said he was the TBE at 154 yet insisted that Martinez come down to 150 and still ended up a duck. They should have stripped those titles much quicker than they did.

Bottom line, the TBEs of boxing often went up to fight way bigger weight discrepancies than Floyd did
LOL I remember that. People criticized Manny for refusing to fight Martinez at the weight he fought Margarito, but at least Manny said he'll never fight above 147 ever again, killing the hopes of Martinez to ever get his hands on Pacquiao.
Thraxox is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2017, 08:23 AM #189
whoelsebutjames whoelsebutjames is offline
Interim Champion
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 560
Quoted: 205 Post(s)
Rep Power: 0
whoelsebutjames is infamous around these partswhoelsebutjames is infamous around these partswhoelsebutjames is infamous around these partswhoelsebutjames is infamous around these partswhoelsebutjames is infamous around these partswhoelsebutjames is infamous around these partswhoelsebutjames is infamous around these partswhoelsebutjames is infamous around these partswhoelsebutjames is infamous around these partswhoelsebutjames is infamous around these partswhoelsebutjames is infamous around these parts
Points: 20,998,909,805.19
Bank: 113,669,378,743.38
Total Points: 134,668,288,548.57
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billeau2 View Post
A for effort indeed. And its a good effort, its the kind of efforts many make...on what we will call the seesaw. So, person A says "Ward beat a great fighter named Dawson" person B says "Dawson was a shell of himself." In this argument many points can be brought to bare, most people don't even look at how Ward beat Dawson (hint: it showed fantastic skill)...And at the end of the day the issue never really gets resolved.

Your insistence regarding Floyd fighting "better" opponents is a similar enterprise. But thats not really what the problem with Floyd is objectively speaking. The problem is that Floyd never beat a great fighter in his prime. And that is a fact. Roy Jones who fought shiat at times did!, Great fighters like Duran and his ilk did. Etc etc and Floyd simply did not. Which is why we have to conjecture about the reach of Forrest, the speed of a younger Mosley, etc.

For the record I don't hold it against Floyd that he didn't fight the Margaritos in the division...welter is not even his best weight. No fighter you mentioned was/is a great fighter in his prime when Floyd fought him. Thats the knock on Floyd.

I commend you for your well thought out, respectful, and written argument. A for effort in deed.

Although, for your argument to to be more solid-- it would be better to say Floyd didn't fight any great fighters. Prime is too subjective as you already pointed out
.

Bringing up Roy, some of these same knocks about prime could be said of him. Benard was green. Toney was outboxed by Tiberi prior to fight with Roy. Virgil hill just lost to Michalczewski. Richard Hall already lost to Gannon.Pazienza Lost to Camacho and Roger years earlier. Do you consider Montell Griffin and Clinton Woods great? Didn't fight Michalczewski, Collins, Frank Lille's, Michael Nunn, Eubanks, McCellan, Watson, Calzaghe(middle to late 90's)or Benn. And in his lesser form was dominated by Calzaghe despite being close in age and being active for a similiar period of time. Calzaghes prime lasted longer.

---------------
Did Roy Jones Jr duck you?
“I was never mandated. But I asked Roy Jones about 10 or 12 years ago if he’d said back in ’93 that the one fighter he thought would give him problems and had reservations of taking on was me. He told me yes that was true.”

Did you take on all the toughest challenges in your career in your opinion?

“As world champion, what you want to avoid is a southpaw who is 6ft or more and unbeaten or been world champion. Rocchigiani and Calzaghe were fights that no other fighter would take. I took them, even though they weren’t even mandated.

“Not even Roy Jones, rated as the best pound-for-pound fighter in history by some writers, would take that fight even when it was mandated to.”

Eubanks interview.

[Link View Has Been Removed. Click Here To Unlock This Content.]
-------------
People credit Jones with how he won more than anything-- with or without the ripped fuel/otc steroids. He looked like a fighter and was superhuman.

Roy Levesta never adapted to not being the most talented man in the ring and despite taking little punishment over his career his reign ended abruptly. He had little discipline which shows with how he took care of his body and never learning his craft deeper because he was too busy beating people up. With his physical gifts and dedication he could of easily been the best ever and extended his reign much further. Hopkins wasn't a monster to me until he beat Tarver. Trinidad is cool but it was a mismatch. Hopkins was never as gifted but plied his craft as a late starter.
Roy is credited as a classic fighter faster stronger and More athletic then his opponent. I apologize if it sounds disrespectful to ROY, I'm just illustrating a point of how people evaluate Floyd.

Last edited by whoelsebutjames; 09-02-2017 at 11:27 AM.
whoelsebutjames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2017, 09:13 AM #190
maracho maracho is offline
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,222
Quoted: 768 Post(s)
Rep Power: 8
maracho has much to be proud ofmaracho has much to be proud ofmaracho has much to be proud ofmaracho has much to be proud ofmaracho has much to be proud ofmaracho has much to be proud ofmaracho has much to be proud ofmaracho has much to be proud of
Points: 10,001,032,334.02
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 10,001,032,334.02
First Rate Poster - ironmt 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thraxox View Post
LOL I remember that. People criticized Manny for refusing to fight Martinez at the weight he fought Margarito, but at least Manny said he'll never fight above 147 ever again, killing the hopes of Martinez to ever get his hands on Pacquiao.
Yeah Martinez was calling out Manny and i bet Freddie Roach knew that Martinez was done for after the knee problems so Cotto got him.

Last edited by maracho; 09-02-2017 at 09:40 AM.
maracho is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share This With Friends

Tags
boxing, floyd, mayweather, tbe

User Tag List

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump


 

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:02 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.