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Old 11-23-2019, 11:28 AM #51
QueensburyRules QueensburyRules is offline
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Originally Posted by chirorickyp View Post
Yes Norton had problems against big punchers, as labeled by many commentaters. Foreman fight yes. Put all his stoppages together when looked upon on the surface it appears that way, however when you look closer at the man's career when it mattered from 1972 to 1978 it's a different story. Washed up against Shavers, he left it in the ring against Holmes. Prime Norton who fought Ali and Holmes could have stopped Shavers, NOT the Scott LeDoux version.
Against any puncher a shot Norton loses for the reasons you mentioned.

Holmes hit hard in my opinion, his right hand was game changer. His jab one of the best ever. Norton went 15rds with that man in a fight that proved he had more mettle than any heavyweight since then other than the very man he fought. That fight alone proved the cahones he had. If the prime version of Norton was cowardly when hurt he would have been stopped at least twice in the classic Holmes fight. Instead he came back in the 14th and 15th rounds. Nobody today would be able to go 14 and 15 rds period let alone take those shots. To this day I still watch those rounds and it gives me goosebumps. As you know Sly and Duran in their taking polyester suits stood up from their seats many times. He didn't back down. Most would have. He should have kept the title had Don King not been involved.
I thought Ali had him hurt twice in the rematch. He made that a close fight.

I'm on board totally with the Lewis analysis.

Norton analysis is not off at all. He had trouble against aggressive punchers. I just see things differently when examining his talent his heart and his career, with a closer examination based on his prime and considering the times he rose to the occasion against 2 of the best ever. Other than Foreman nobody kicked Norton's butt.
- -Certainly not tubby Lar who was still Skinny then.
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Old 11-24-2019, 06:35 PM #52
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I would dig seeing Jack Johnson take on the modern heavies. Maybe all of them at once!
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Old 11-25-2019, 10:15 PM #53
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Originally Posted by Rusty Tromboni View Post
So even simple math is hard for you?

Not trying to sound like a dick, but Hagler and Marciano were the same height. Maybe Marciano was an inch taller. There was a 7" reach disparity... FAVORING Hagler.

Marciano weighed 185 for the Walcott rematch and 188 on his last outing (but had weighed less when a ranked Heavyweight). Hagler was 160 lbs. in his rematch w/ Antuofermo.

Ali was 6'3" 78" reach, 216 pounds for Quarry II and Rumble in the Jungle. He was lighter in his first fight w/ Frazier (I think that was him at his best), but swelled up to 225 pounds for Manilla (his most epic match).

Again, pick the numbers which are bigger:
1 or 5?
7 or 10?
25 or 31?

No offense, but sometimes it feels like you argue just too argue. This time you fell into your own trap.




What a hack! Duran didn't even need to retire to pull that off! He did it between fights!

I guessyou want me to believe Duran is naturally bigger than Hagler, too?

Where should we start? His wrists? His ankles? His earlobes? That part of the lip beneath the nose?



Replace "Rocky" with "Hagler" and the comment becomes even MORE true.

Hagler also certainly used the steamroom (and more). For Rocky, making 175 was possible too. But why eat a hamburger when you got steak waiting at home?



I know his career as well as anyone here.

I also know weight cutting, and bulking up better than anyone here. I spent most of my life dedicated to it (and know enough to tell people NOT to do it).

The guys Marciano fought WERE Heavyweights. Moore was bigger than Rocky when he entered the ring. Same as Charles. Just look at them and the scales.

Sure, he was bigger at 25 than they had been. He could have bulked up over them. But at that time he was spotting them weight.

Show me a physics book that provides a caveat about how mass is made and I'll leave this discussion. You can't. That is why guys bulk up. That is why fat slobs in the bologna bi.tch tit division are lethal when the little munchkins who look like they're cut from marble have matches that seem to go one forever.

I'm saying this to compliment Marciano. He beat Moore and Walcott at their best. Charles wasn't that far off from his best. Though, I dunno if I'd pick Marciano to regularly beat a prime Charles. It would probably take at least one try. He also beat them simply by wanting it more. They broke, he didn't.

You know the point I was making but you purposely ignore it.

especially the Duran point.

my point has always been that your actually weight varies greatly depending on how you train. Your natural weight, your real weight and functionality at that weight is different.

FOR EXAMPLE.

Duran has been 135 lbs and he has been 250 lbs.

He has however, never been a real heavyweight. Because carrying lot of weight on a smaller frame only makes you heavier, not bigger.

Rocky, had a bigger frame, big enough to knock old Joe Louis right through the ropes, but was carrying very little weight which would attest to his great stamina.


LET ME REMIND YOU

that Deontay Wilder was 212 lbs in his bout with Fury, his debut weight was 207 lbs. Yet nearly everyone considers Wilder a big heavyweight. I'm pretty sure that is lighter than Joe Louis was that night,and I wouldn't call Louis fat, he was just older and worn out.

So if you actually think that Hagler and Rocky are similar in size you are kidding yourself. stop playing dumb
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Old 11-26-2019, 07:13 AM #54
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Originally Posted by them_apples View Post
You know the point I was making but you purposely ignore it.

especially the Duran point.

my point has always been that your actually weight varies greatly depending on how you train. Your natural weight, your real weight and functionality at that weight is different.

FOR EXAMPLE.

Duran has been 135 lbs and he has been 250 lbs.

He has however, never been a real heavyweight. Because carrying lot of weight on a smaller frame only makes you heavier, not bigger.

Rocky, had a bigger frame, big enough to knock old Joe Louis right through the ropes, but was carrying very little weight which would attest to his great stamina.


LET ME REMIND YOU

that Deontay Wilder was 212 lbs in his bout with Fury, his debut weight was 207 lbs. Yet nearly everyone considers Wilder a big heavyweight. I'm pretty sure that is lighter than Joe Louis was that night,and I wouldn't call Louis fat, he was just older and worn out.

So if you actually think that Hagler and Rocky are similar in size you are kidding yourself. stop playing dumb
You didn't read half my post, yet I am playing dumb?

Look at what a monster Ali is in the ring with Frazier. Frazier who trained comparable to Marciano. Maybe not to the degree, but when he came to a fork in the road, he went down the lane Marciano took, not the one Galento and Tua took.

Getting hit by a 175 pound man feels WAY different than getting hit by a fellow Middleweight or Light Middleweight. That's why Hagler never abandoned his home division.
But you don't think he could have bulked up beyond 160? Again, everything you said of Marciano the man-possessed is true of Hagler. Marciano's power and the dearth of talent at Heavyweight (particularly at that time) compared to Light Heavyweight being the difference.
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Old 12-06-2019, 10:30 PM #55
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Originally Posted by Rusty Tromboni View Post
You didn't read half my post, yet I am playing dumb?

Look at what a monster Ali is in the ring with Frazier. Frazier who trained comparable to Marciano. Maybe not to the degree, but when he came to a fork in the road, he went down the lane Marciano took, not the one Galento and Tua took.

Getting hit by a 175 pound man feels WAY different than getting hit by a fellow Middleweight or Light Middleweight. That's why Hagler never abandoned his home division.
But you don't think he could have bulked up beyond 160? Again, everything you said of Marciano the man-possessed is true of Hagler. Marciano's power and the dearth of talent at Heavyweight (particularly at that time) compared to Light Heavyweight being the difference.
I read your entire post.

Anyone can bulk. I can bulk to HW if I want to. You seem to completely miss my point every time, and I have made this point on many different occasions. fighters have EFFECTIVE weights. Underneath all the bulk is a bodies natural makeup. Bone structure, tendons, lung capacity, bone density, natural muscle shape and make up. Someone could be very stocky in frame but run 20 miles every day and be someone skinny. The second they stop they slam on weight fast because they are thick in frame and their body is supposed to carry more weight. Someone could be small in frame and be carrying 25 lbs of muscle mass making them heavier but also cumbersome, musclebound and fatigued.

Yes Hagler could have bulked to 250 if he wanted, hell, Ronny Coleman went from 180 to over 300. You just can't seem to get past the scale problem. Rocky was 188 lbs and knocking down men much larger than him, (yes the best guys were smaller at the time, but he did beat up a lot of heavyweights). Rocky could bulk to 250 if he wanted, but that would take away his best attributes. Actually, when he retired he was up to 255 if I recall correctly. Funny thing is, Ruiz still looked fatter than him.


Rocky is a stocky framed fighter who trained for endurance. If you read his book he did more roadwork than any fighter I ever read about. 12 miles up and down hills in boots, every day. He trained to outlast his opponents because he wasn't fast. his best attributes were his heavy hands and his endurance. He recooperated fast and he threw more punches than anyone at heavyweight. Rocky could have easily been over 200, if he trained like the heavyweights today we are probably talking 240 and fat as a cow.

I actually laugh so hard when I see Anthony Joshua. He's got this huge arm and this small little wrist and hand, like a body builder. He's got everyone duped into thinking he's this monster of a heavyweight but in reality he just looks good. He's not monstrously strong, he's not fast, he doesnt even hit hard. And under neath that 250 lbs is that tall glass of water waiting to be broken, that 6 ft 6 natty 200 and thin in the face.

In one camp he's already down to 237, that goes to show he was massively upkeeping that 250 lbs. The second he got off gear, bulking shakes and 4 meals a day his body probably retreated at high speed. this guy could be 215 lbs easily within a year.

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Old 12-07-2019, 06:10 AM #56
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Originally Posted by them_apples View Post
I read your entire post.

Anyone can bulk. I can bulk to HW if I want to. You seem to completely miss my point every time, and I have made this point on many different occasions. fighters have EFFECTIVE weights. Underneath all the bulk is a bodies natural makeup. Bone structure, tendons, lung capacity, bone density, natural muscle shape and make up. Someone could be very stocky in frame but run 20 miles every day and be someone skinny. The second they stop they slam on weight fast because they are thick in frame and their body is supposed to carry more weight. Someone could be small in frame and be carrying 25 lbs of muscle mass making them heavier but also cumbersome, musclebound and fatigued.

Yes Hagler could have bulked to 250 if he wanted, hell, Ronny Coleman went from 180 to over 300. You just can't seem to get past the scale problem. Rocky was 188 lbs and knocking down men much larger than him, (yes the best guys were smaller at the time, but he did beat up a lot of heavyweights). Rocky could bulk to 250 if he wanted, but that would take away his best attributes. Actually, when he retired he was up to 255 if I recall correctly. Funny thing is, Ruiz still looked fatter than him.


Rocky is a stocky framed fighter who trained for endurance. If you read his book he did more roadwork than any fighter I ever read about. 12 miles up and down hills in boots, every day. He trained to outlast his opponents because he wasn't fast. his best attributes were his heavy hands and his endurance. He recooperated fast and he threw more punches than anyone at heavyweight. Rocky could have easily been over 200, if he trained like the heavyweights today we are probably talking 240 and fat as a cow.

I actually laugh so hard when I see Anthony Joshua. He's got this huge arm and this small little wrist and hand, like a body builder. He's got everyone duped into thinking he's this monster of a heavyweight but in reality he just looks good. He's not monstrously strong, he's not fast, he doesnt even hit hard. And under neath that 250 lbs is that tall glass of water waiting to be broken, that 6 ft 6 natty 200 and thin in the face.

In one camp he's already down to 237, that goes to show he was massively upkeeping that 250 lbs. The second he got off gear, bulking shakes and 4 meals a day his body probably retreated at high speed. this guy could be 215 lbs easily within a year.
- -Lotta blah-blah analysis here.

Nobody better than Archie at flitting between LH and heavy and I have no doubt with weight training he'd scale 205 for a twelve rd title fight and have tricks unfathomable to the current crop of boxing experts and fighters.

It won't make him a great heavy though, because he was already great thru his LH run.

I've seen Andy Ruiz in the 240s, and he is a formidable looking, one off physical speciman, but like many big men, not in stature, but in natural bone and muscle size, he prefers to be fat as that's where he feels the strongest.

Most Olympic hvy class weightlifters have that extra heft, but size can also be visually misleading. The Cowboys had a Tackle (Newton) going 6-3, 330 that everybody thought was fat, but Tom Landry who introduced scientific wt training into the nfl with spectacular results said Newtons bodyfat measured by H2O immersion was the lowest on the team, even the long and lean defensive backs.

That was the genius of Big George's comeback, ie he embraced his size. Early in it against Qawi he was down to 235, in traditional boxing shape, and looked like he coulda been modeling speedos.

He knocked the careening Qawi around like so many bowling pins, and then promptly returned to the 250s where he did his best work.

AJ has fallen into the modern science physical training that is trying to maximize rehydrated physical size in a 12 rd era where KDs are scored for and against fighters, and typically that involves specific wt training all why aesthetically trying to look as low body fat traditional fighters of yore, so it's hard to know what his natural body bulk would be, but in the 240s he was running 10.5 100 meter times that would likely beat most ever Decathlete medalist who ever existed and he's a true 6-6 stature.

I'd dismiss his training for this fight as I would Andy's. Too much of a good thing seldom pays off, but it will in million$$$ for this fight...only in boxing!
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Old 12-08-2019, 01:45 AM #57
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Any man who has ever worn the mantle "World Champion" deserves just as much respect as any other...whether he wore the belt in 1910 or 2010, for to be a "champion", a true champion, is to be a breed apart.
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Old 12-09-2019, 10:32 PM #58
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I read your entire post.


Then you didn't get it.

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Originally Posted by them_apples View Post

Anyone can bulk. I can bulk to HW if I want to. You seem to completely miss my point every time, and I have made this point on many different occasions. fighters have EFFECTIVE weights. Underneath all the bulk is a bodies natural makeup. Bone structure, tendons, lung capacity, bone density, natural muscle shape and make up. Someone could be very stocky in frame but run 20 miles every day and be someone skinny. The second they stop they slam on weight fast because they are thick in frame and their body is supposed to carry more weight. Someone could be small in frame and be carrying 25 lbs of muscle mass making them heavier but also cumbersome, musclebound and fatigued.

Yes Hagler could have bulked to 250 if he wanted, hell, Ronny Coleman went from 180 to over 300. You just can't seem to get past the scale problem. Rocky was 188 lbs and knocking down men much larger than him, (yes the best guys were smaller at the time, but he did beat up a lot of heavyweights). Rocky could bulk to 250 if he wanted, but that would take away his best attributes. Actually, when he retired he was up to 255 if I recall correctly. Funny thing is, Ruiz still looked fatter than him.


Rocky is a stocky framed fighter who trained for endurance. If you read his book he did more roadwork than any fighter I ever read about. 12 miles up and down hills in boots, every day. He trained to outlast his opponents because he wasn't fast. his best attributes were his heavy hands and his endurance. He recooperated fast and he threw more punches than anyone at heavyweight. Rocky could have easily been over 200, if he trained like the heavyweights today we are probably talking 240 and fat as a cow.

I actually laugh so hard when I see Anthony Joshua. He's got this huge arm and this small little wrist and hand, like a body builder. He's got everyone duped into thinking he's this monster of a heavyweight but in reality he just looks good. He's not monstrously strong, he's not fast, he doesnt even hit hard. And under neath that 250 lbs is that tall glass of water waiting to be broken, that 6 ft 6 natty 200 and thin in the face.

In one camp he's already down to 237, that goes to show he was massively upkeeping that 250 lbs. The second he got off gear, bulking shakes and 4 meals a day his body probably retreated at high speed. this guy could be 215 lbs easily within a year.

It's not that I don't take you seriously, or believe your posts are without meaning. In fact, they are generally well though out, well informed and on point. But sometimes your own insights are lost on you.

Here's a question: if Marciano came of age in Ali's era, you don't think he would have fought at 175, instead? If he fought at Heavyweight, would he have continued to come in below 190 pounds when fighting men like Ali, Bugner, Frazier and Foreman?
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Old 12-09-2019, 10:39 PM #59
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- -Lotta blah-blah analysis here.

Nobody better than Archie at flitting between LH and heavy and I have no doubt with weight training he'd scale 205 for a twelve rd title fight and have tricks unfathomable to the current crop of boxing experts and fighters.

It won't make him a great heavy though, because he was already great thru his LH run.

I've seen Andy Ruiz in the 240s, and he is a formidable looking, one off physical speciman, but like many big men, not in stature, but in natural bone and muscle size, he prefers to be fat as that's where he feels the strongest.

Most Olympic hvy class weightlifters have that extra heft, but size can also be visually misleading. The Cowboys had a Tackle (Newton) going 6-3, 330 that everybody thought was fat, but Tom Landry who introduced scientific wt training into the nfl with spectacular results said Newtons bodyfat measured by H2O immersion was the lowest on the team, even the long and lean defensive backs.

That was the genius of Big George's comeback, ie he embraced his size. Early in it against Qawi he was down to 235, in traditional boxing shape, and looked like he coulda been modeling speedos.

He knocked the careening Qawi around like so many bowling pins, and then promptly returned to the 250s where he did his best work.

AJ has fallen into the modern science physical training that is trying to maximize rehydrated physical size in a 12 rd era where KDs are scored for and against fighters, and typically that involves specific wt training all why aesthetically trying to look as low body fat traditional fighters of yore, so it's hard to know what his natural body bulk would be, but in the 240s he was running 10.5 100 meter times that would likely beat most ever Decathlete medalist who ever existed and he's a true 6-6 stature.

I'd dismiss his training for this fight as I would Andy's. Too much of a good thing seldom pays off, but it will in million$$$ for this fight...only in boxing!
Exceptional post.
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Old 12-10-2019, 03:28 PM #60
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Boxing gets softer as it continues, the rules reflect that, and the way men fight does as well.

I'm one of them boring ass answerers who says in their era a great should be favored.

Fitz, small as he is, would probably whoop Joshua more often than not, not unlike how he handled Maher. It's a totally different beast when you have rules that allow for over an hour of fighting. All of a sudden size becomes a liability.

I'd say around the 50s is when the current kids start to find most neutral territory but with racism that's easily pushed the 70s at least for fairness....I wouldn't argue with one who says the struggle continues though.

Even the 15 rounder would prove murderous to most the current HWs and quite a lot of the 2000s, 90s, and 80s HWs as well.

In today's modern 12 rnd 3kd unified rules I think it's difficult to see a guy like Marciano or Dempsey doing well. Half their ability is stripped by the rules. Their size is made into a deficit. Their game plans are gone, there isn't much left of them but integral things like heart.

Born in this era I have no doubt Marciano would clobber Canelo, I'm not sure he'd've even been a HW though.
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