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Old 11-21-2019, 11:57 PM #21
Anthony342 Anthony342 is offline
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I would agree with that. I have a friend whose daughter is in karate and from what he said it's more or less one big aerobics class with very little practicality in re fighting. MMA champ Lyoto Machida uses his strong Shotokan background in many of his fights.
True, but he didn't stay at the top long, but also showed that karate has its place in MMA, at least. I think what also helped was his black belt in BJJ, which he could use for defensive grappling as well.
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Old 11-22-2019, 11:20 AM #22
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True, but he didn't stay at the top long, but also showed that karate has its place in MMA, at least. I think what also helped was his black belt in BJJ, which he could use for defensive grappling as well.
Won't argue that about Lyoto but he does have an admirable record. Chuck Liddell and GSP have extensive karate backgrounds. I'm far from an expert at this stuff but I don't recall seeing a whole lot of karate techniques in their fights.
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Old 11-22-2019, 11:47 AM #23
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Won't argue that about Lyoto but he does have an admirable record. Chuck Liddell and GSP have extensive karate backgrounds. I'm far from an expert at this stuff but I don't recall seeing a whole lot of karate techniques in their fights.
I studied karate for about 20 years or so, before going on to other arts like Ju Jutsu and AikiJutsu. We were a fighting club and fought with other clubs perpetually. I also had a group in college who I trained to fight in the crap tournaments around Washington DC, and my students would clear out all the divisions.

I am mentioning this because I want people to understand I have a pretty good idea about what I am talking about. I have experienced fighting against boxers, working with grapplers, weapons etc... You said you were not an expert, so now consider me somewhat of an expert at least... When I say that You are absolutely correct and I will explain, at least as I see it, why you are correct.

You can change a lot, modify a lot of things in a system until you cross a line. In karate there is more to the art than just linear punching ( machada reverse punch Shotokan), kicking high, and open hand striking. These are simply techniques, not integral parts of the system. I can teach someone who never studied karate how to throw a reverse punch.

What makes Karate effective is body and psychological dynamics. A karateka is taught to commit to an attack, and to attack as though every movement, including some of the blocks, are to break the other person. This video shows how that translates: To hit with that kind of force one has to be grounded, hence we see limited mobility, certainly not detailed footwork like a boxer, nor detailed angles like South Asian martial arts, nor the circular movements of classical Japanese Arts.

Karate works because the person learns to attack with a concerted effort to an area that can be damaged. Punches are to the jaw line, not the skull, or to the solar plexis area, not even the ribs really. Targets that are harder, like the ribs and knee are hit by the foot. Chopping is to the soft areas like the neck and temple. The older systems augment this hitting with grabbing and pulling as well, all with the same design.

Unfortunately this approach does not translate well to the ring. Whether people know it, or not, a sports JuJitsu practicioner trains for the ring, as does a boxer. In sports JuJitsu one is taught to get position first, then apply technique, this is the opposite of how one trains for the street: where one hits hard and first, to gain control over the situation and apply technique. Boxers also train to fight in the environment of the ring. These arts developed in the ring. Karate and classical JuJutsu developed for battle and they look weak in the ring because of it. Kick boxing tried to make Karate techniques applicable to the ring because of the kicking. Opinions vary about how effective this approach was/is.
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Old 11-22-2019, 01:02 PM #24
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I studied karate for about 20 years or so, before going on to other arts like Ju Jutsu and AikiJutsu. We were a fighting club and fought with other clubs perpetually. I also had a group in college who I trained to fight in the crap tournaments around Washington DC, and my students would clear out all the divisions.

I am mentioning this because I want people to understand I have a pretty good idea about what I am talking about. I have experienced fighting against boxers, working with grapplers, weapons etc... You said you were not an expert, so now consider me somewhat of an expert at least... When I say that You are absolutely correct and I will explain, at least as I see it, why you are correct.

You can change a lot, modify a lot of things in a system until you cross a line. In karate there is more to the art than just linear punching ( machada reverse punch Shotokan), kicking high, and open hand striking. These are simply techniques, not integral parts of the system. I can teach someone who never studied karate how to throw a reverse punch.

What makes Karate effective is body and psychological dynamics. A karateka is taught to commit to an attack, and to attack as though every movement, including some of the blocks, are to break the other person. This video shows how that translates: To hit with that kind of force one has to be grounded, hence we see limited mobility, certainly not detailed footwork like a boxer, nor detailed angles like South Asian martial arts, nor the circular movements of classical Japanese Arts.

Karate works because the person learns to attack with a concerted effort to an area that can be damaged. Punches are to the jaw line, not the skull, or to the solar plexis area, not even the ribs really. Targets that are harder, like the ribs and knee are hit by the foot. Chopping is to the soft areas like the neck and temple. The older systems augment this hitting with grabbing and pulling as well, all with the same design.

Unfortunately this approach does not translate well to the ring. Whether people know it, or not, a sports JuJitsu practicioner trains for the ring, as does a boxer. In sports JuJitsu one is taught to get position first, then apply technique, this is the opposite of how one trains for the street: where one hits hard and first, to gain control over the situation and apply technique. Boxers also train to fight in the environment of the ring. These arts developed in the ring. Karate and classical JuJutsu developed for battle and they look weak in the ring because of it. Kick boxing tried to make Karate techniques applicable to the ring because of the kicking. Opinions vary about how effective this approach was/is.
So you're saying in the street, you gotta be more like a Cobra Kai right? Strike hard, strike first, no mercy?
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Old 11-22-2019, 01:34 PM #25
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So you're saying in the street, you gotta be more like a Cobra Kai right? Strike hard, strike first, no mercy?
You know whats so funny? They brought that whole thing back with that series, and they really swung the whole thing... Frankly the original, even though neither actor knew one karate technique, lol was much closer to the real deal.

Okinawans were hardy. They lived in good protein rich sea environments so were built strong... Most Chinese boxing systems had to take much time and energy to build the body up to a point where it could function under duress... Armed with a small nobility and a lot of hardy individuals, Okinawa developed strong linear applications.

Unlike the Bushi of Japan, who were professionals, or the Chinese armed with a long history of esoterica from the Taoist arts, the karate men kept things simple. Okinawa Te or Shuri Te, which later translated as empty hand, was an art with relatively balanced positions, and force generated with hip thrusting movements.

So the real deal is not so much cobra kai as simple technique practiced long and hard, with a mindset to attack vital points that is second nature. Because Americans were big boys, the Okinawans loved training them...You could toss em around and the Marines would not break lol.

Oh one more thing Anthony... There is a concept in karate where you can pull the technique. Unfortunately this concept gets abused. basically I can choose to hit with less force, but when I fight continually like that I will build bad habits.

Last edited by billeau2; 11-22-2019 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 11-22-2019, 02:02 PM #26
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I studied karate for about 20 years or so, before going on to other arts like Ju Jutsu and AikiJutsu. We were a fighting club and fought with other clubs perpetually. I also had a group in college who I trained to fight in the crap tournaments around Washington DC, and my students would clear out all the divisions.

I am mentioning this because I want people to understand I have a pretty good idea about what I am talking about. I have experienced fighting against boxers, working with grapplers, weapons etc... You said you were not an expert, so now consider me somewhat of an expert at least... When I say that You are absolutely correct and I will explain, at least as I see it, why you are correct.

You can change a lot, modify a lot of things in a system until you cross a line. In karate there is more to the art than just linear punching ( machada reverse punch Shotokan), kicking high, and open hand striking. These are simply techniques, not integral parts of the system. I can teach someone who never studied karate how to throw a reverse punch.

What makes Karate effective is body and psychological dynamics. A karateka is taught to commit to an attack, and to attack as though every movement, including some of the blocks, are to break the other person. This video shows how that translates: To hit with that kind of force one has to be grounded, hence we see limited mobility, certainly not detailed footwork like a boxer, nor detailed angles like South Asian martial arts, nor the circular movements of classical Japanese Arts.

Karate works because the person learns to attack with a concerted effort to an area that can be damaged. Punches are to the jaw line, not the skull, or to the solar plexis area, not even the ribs really. Targets that are harder, like the ribs and knee are hit by the foot. Chopping is to the soft areas like the neck and temple. The older systems augment this hitting with grabbing and pulling as well, all with the same design.

Unfortunately this approach does not translate well to the ring. Whether people know it, or not, a sports JuJitsu practicioner trains for the ring, as does a boxer. In sports JuJitsu one is taught to get position first, then apply technique, this is the opposite of how one trains for the street: where one hits hard and first, to gain control over the situation and apply technique. Boxers also train to fight in the environment of the ring. These arts developed in the ring. Karate and classical JuJutsu developed for battle and they look weak in the ring because of it. Kick boxing tried to make Karate techniques applicable to the ring because of the kicking. Opinions vary about how effective this approach was/is.
Excellent explanation. Thanks for that.

Back to your comment about the frequency of making full power contact in tournaments. Wasn't it in the rules that with certain techniques you were supposed to hold back on full contact? And if so, how often was that really enforced?
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Old 11-22-2019, 05:48 PM #27
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Excellent explanation. Thanks for that.

Back to your comment about the frequency of making full power contact in tournaments. Wasn't it in the rules that with certain techniques you were supposed to hold back on full contact? And if so, how often was that really enforced?
Two general rules:

1) Blind techniques had to be done with light contact assuming it was a full contact tournament. Blind techniques are those that you throw without holding your vision the whole time on the opponent, like a spinning backfist.

2) In most tournaments the rules were either light contact...In which you pull the technique before any contact, or full contact body, and light to none contact to the face.

Now in truth this varied tremendously depending on where the tournament was held. frankly many tournaments were set up to be a fight between two clubs, or other such rivalries. Texas, The East Coast were known for hard contact.
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Old 11-22-2019, 07:58 PM #28
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- -I'll put it this way, I knew anocdotely about various disciplines, so I signed up for an extended after hours Tai Chi course.

I wanted the elemental discipline and grace of what I understood to be the oldest martial art in the East.

First class just going thru the balance of various forms and then speeding them into more fluidity.

Took a pamphlet home to study an work on that I didn't because I was taking full 16 hr of science courses while working nights at the adolescent unit of the state mental institutions, so next week he pulled me out front to demonstrate last week.

On the spot big time, so I started and muscle memory carried me through flawlessly and everyone clapped.

Much relieved, I returned to class and he announced our spars, and keep in mind there were women who thankfully were assigned women. He showed us the offensive and defensive forms he wanted, and then we started our non contact spar.

I successfully carried out my offense to his defense, but in his turn he strayed from script and deliberately drop kicked my groin before a fake apology.

I was so steamed up at deliberately offering up myself in such a stupid martial arts pose to be savaged by a worm I could throttle with one hand, well, let's just say that was my last class.

I did get a lot out of it no matter how brief as my instructor was most excellent, a rarity in the public unis.
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Old 11-22-2019, 10:17 PM #29
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Two general rules:

1) Blind techniques had to be done with light contact assuming it was a full contact tournament. Blind techniques are those that you throw without holding your vision the whole time on the opponent, like a spinning backfist.

2) In most tournaments the rules were either light contact...In which you pull the technique before any contact, or full contact body, and light to none contact to the face.

Now in truth this varied tremendously depending on where the tournament was held. frankly many tournaments were set up to be a fight between two clubs, or other such rivalries. Texas, The East Coast were known for hard contact.
When I was competing in the early 80s in TKD tournaments most of the strikes were done with kicks to the torso. You could kick to the head but you had to maintain control. Light contact to the head was allowed but if you drew blood because of too long a toenail or too hard a hit you were DQ'd. Not many punches were thrown though. Basically a kicking to the abdomen contest.
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Old 11-23-2019, 12:22 PM #30
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When I was competing in the early 80s in TKD tournaments most of the strikes were done with kicks to the torso. You could kick to the head but you had to maintain control. Light contact to the head was allowed but if you drew blood because of too long a toenail or too hard a hit you were DQ'd. Not many punches were thrown though. Basically a kicking to the abdomen contest.
TKD tourneys were their own thing. Joon Rhe was instrumental in making some of the events more mainstream. Henry Chow in New York City was another one who made the art, the events more mainstream. Throughout the years Korean karate confused many people. It was on the onset, organized according to schools, called "kwans." Kwans came out of when Karate was introduced into Korea. Tang Soo Do, which translates as "Karate" was basically karate with longer stances. Chuck Norris was the main student in this art, which he learned in the air Force. The art uses the same kata as Shotokan which is Japanese karate.

Tae Kwon Do has a few "kwans" we used to fight the Moo Dyuk Kwan guys who were hard linear punchers... But most of the groups emphasize high kicking and incorporate Tae Kyon, a folk art of foot fighting that is indigineous to Korea.

Then you have Hap Ki Do which combines the AikiJutsu of Sokeda, which was taught to a Korean student, and karate techniques. Bohg Su Han of Billy Jack fame was the main teacher for this art. He learned in a monastery according to him lol. Then we have Hwang Do made famous by Michael Innis, a for hire soldger of fortune. This art was supposed to be a type of Ninpo... emphasizing pressure points, throws, weapons...Never cared for it much frankly.

Finally we have Kook Sul Wan, which is a kwan emphasizing Chinese Kung Fu like movements, and art.

These are the most well known Kwans, but there are many. The training can vary in quality from exceptional to really bad. The Mu Duk Kwan guys we fought could fight. They did not do much but what they did do, they did well. Straight reverse punches, low kicks, fast foot sweeps... We also fought some Korean special forces guys who looked really sloppy but we were told they looked that way deliberately not to give anything away...Lol.
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