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View Poll Results: DID YOU PRAY THAT PRAYER AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS THREAD TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART?
YES 25 9.40%
I ALREADY ASKED JESUS TO COME INTO MY HEART BEFORE 76 28.57%
NO 165 62.03%
Voters: 266. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-04-2008, 05:49 PM #681
anonymousboxing anonymousboxing is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Anomaly View Post
As for our last coversation i finished with these questions:
One main question is "how do u know ur God makes the right decisions?" and "how do u justify ur acceptance in the belief in hell?"
If you're entertaining the thought of GOD, entertain the possibility that He has a greater understanding than you do.
Who would want to serve a God that had inferior thinking anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Anomaly View Post
The people in church are already 'saved'.
Its the ones outside who need converting, and how do u do that? Talking about the miracles of Jesus isnt going to work unless they have faith thats the stories are true.
So how do they achieve faith? If they dont theyre going to hell right?

If they keep finding reasons to not believe they will never be able to believe. So should they just ignore those reasons? Why should they?

Why would Jesus not want to be understood? Or perform miracles to the non-believers? If u loved somone u would do everything u could to convince them their lives were in danger. Why then does God not answer prayers or gives us a unquestionable, undeniable, eternal divine sign?
Of coarse Jesus wanted to be understood. Don't misunderstand what he did.
He spoke in parable to weed out those who weren't sincerely interested.
He made Himself available afterwards for those who were willing to go the extra mile to understand His teachings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Anomaly View Post
Yes, Pazuzu was/is me. I forgot i changed my name.
Am i still having to prove my 'sincerity' to u????
Sincerity is everything.
It determines wether this conversation will lead to anything good, or if it'll have a negative effect.
If you're looking for reasons to NOT believe you'll find them.
But If you're looking for reasons TO believe, you'll also find them.
But I WON'T waist a single minute of my time posting to ARGUE with anyone about the kingdom.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Anomaly View Post
What makes u doubt me?
You believe God is a 'a universal connection'. Not necessarily an intelligent 'being'.
Yet you click on a thread that's titled "How to get to Heaven When you Die".
As if a 'universal connection' would have a 'dwelling place'.
You're either jumping into this thread to impose your concrete view,
or you're open the possibility of an intelligent being that's created some "HEAVEN"
that people can "GET INTO".

Maybe it's the latter, but seems you can't get past your own view to accept something as simple as faith.
We all have a level a faith. Wether it's believing that a tomorrow that you've never seen will come, to the
"LONG STRETCHED" faith of believing Jesus was God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Anomaly View Post
I dont think i could list the things ive learnt since March regarding religious faith.
I've looked into the different arguments concerning Gods existance, to see if any of them
convince me in any way that there is really somthing to it.
But i havent got any closer to understanding how people manage to take that giant
leap of faith that a loving, caring, judgemental, punishing God exists.
Let me save us both time & energy. You WON'T get any closer without faith.
Christianity along with every world religion, including your own philosophy, requires faith, cause
you're not 100% certain. You're basing your beliefs on a God that you don't see but can only
experience AFTER being in the faith.
Let's not forget the not-so-far-fetched definition of the word "faith" described in scripture...
"faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." Hebrew 11:1
...that's not even far from Webster's definition.

Christianity wouldn't be a "faith" if you had all the evidence that you need.
You're waiting for evidence that will suddenly give you a moment of illumination that only God grants:
God says through scripture: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 1 Corinthians 1:19
In other words, in a religion that bases it's salvation on a Christ, you have to rely on Him for salvation, not your own mind or its ability to comprehend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Anomaly View Post
Im not sure what the difference is between wishful thinking and faith.
I understand the practicality of religion and theism, just not how so many people achieve it.
I heard someone talk about this.
Wishful thinking vs faith. It helped me when I was going through this, and
I could give you an mp3, but it won't matter much. If you're missing my point so far, then I doubt
anything will get through to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Anomaly View Post
With it seems if ur asked difficult questions u dont really answer, but question my sincerity.
Difficult!?!?!?!
Not at all.
I've asked alot of the same questions you have and more.
People like you end up being leaders of the faith instead of sheep.
But you HAVE to understand, that all the answers to your questions won't make sense without the work of God, and if I answer your questions you'll miss my this main point.
I've already found answers to all these 'skeptical' questions, cause I've been through them. But ONLY AFTER I 'flipped' my thinking from skepticism to faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Anomaly View Post
Is that what faith is? Just saying "ok, i believe, i wont doubt any more". And this is what im getting at; how do people do that??
You have 2 steps to get past before entertaining any further thoughts of all this "bull crap" faith stuff.
Is this idea of a GOD even a possibility? If so, is He capable of using man to do His will - like writing & preserving a Bible?
You have to get past those 2 before any further progress.
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Old 11-05-2008, 01:59 AM #682
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Please take the time to read this first post and pray that prayer to God at the bottom of it if you haven't yet.
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Old 11-05-2008, 08:17 AM #683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xfrodobagginsx View Post
Please take the time to read this first post and pray that prayer to God at the bottom of it if you haven't yet.
Stuck record.
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Old 11-05-2008, 04:03 PM #684
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymousboxing View Post
If you're entertaining the thought of GOD, entertain the possibility that He has a greater understanding than you do.
Who would want to serve a God that had inferior thinking anyway.

.
Im sure he understands everything, i dont doubt that. But he keeps it to himself. And lets us remain confused and skeptical and ignorant heading towards eternal damnation??
U dont understand why he will send all the billions of non-believers to burn in hell forever, but u have faith its the right thing to do. And these reasons he keeps to himself.
Can God make 2 + 2 = 5?
Can he make torture and suffering the 'right' thing to do??
He is God and therefore he is perfect because he is God. (where do u see evidence of his perfection?)
Seeing as God, heaven and hell all concern me and everyone i care about, id like to be able to understand it.

Quote:
Of coarse Jesus wanted to be understood. Don't misunderstand what he did.
He spoke in parable to weed out those who weren't sincerely interested.
He made Himself available afterwards for those who were willing to go the extra mile to understand His teachings.[

So the ones who just walked away because they werent interested, or were just too busy, or too dim to understand parable are destined for hell.
If Jesus loved us, and wanted to save us from hell, just as we would want to save our children from a building on fire, why not speak so that could save as many people as he possibly could?
Surely God could make himself understood by everyone?



Quote:
Sincerity is everything.
It determines wether this conversation will lead to anything good, or if it'll have a negative effect.
If you're looking for reasons to NOT believe you'll find them.
But If you're looking for reasons TO believe, you'll also find them.
But I WON'T waist a single minute of my time posting to ARGUE with anyone about the kingdom.
I can give u many reasons why i dont have faith. U havent attempted to give me one reason how u have faith.


Quote:
You believe God is a 'a universal connection'. Not necessarily an intelligent 'being'.
Yet you click on a thread that's titled "How to get to Heaven When you Die".
As if a 'universal connection' would have a 'dwelling place'.
You're either jumping into this thread to impose your concrete view,
or you're open the possibility of an intelligent being that's created some "HEAVEN"
that people can "GET INTO".

Maybe it's the latter, but seems you can't get past your own view to accept something as simple as faith.
We all have a level a faith. Wether it's believing that a tomorrow that you've never seen will come, to the
"LONG STRETCHED" faith of believing Jesus was God.
True we all do have a level of faith. My faith about there being a tomorow is based on there being a yesterday, and day befre that etc. Is my kid going to grow up to be a junkie or a preist? I have faith that they will make the right choices based on how they have been raised and how they are doing so far.
Faith in there being a God who answers prayers, or a life after death, or miracles and angels must be based on nothing more than the need to believe if compared to the evidence that backs any of it up. There is none. It can all be explained naturally.
If a thread has a interesting title, like click on it and maybe give my opinion.
If someone is asking me to say a prayer to be saved from hell, i will ask why they believe any of it to be real.
Faith is apparently not simple to explain for those who have it. Its easier for the skeptic to explain.
But as i read somwhere...you cant measure a sunbeam with a ruler.
To quantiffy religious experience is to obliterate it.

If belief in God could be nuerologically understood, it would destroy the belief that it is inspired by divinity.

Quote:
Let me save us both time & energy. You WON'T get any closer without faith.
Christianity along with every world religion, including your own philosophy, requires faith, cause
you're not 100% certain. You're basing your beliefs on a God that you don't see but can only
experience AFTER being in the faith.
Let's not forget the not-so-far-fetched definition of the word "faith" described in scripture...
"faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." Hebrew 11:1
...that's not even far from Webster's definition.

Christianity wouldn't be a "faith" if you had all the evidence that you need.
You're waiting for evidence that will suddenly give you a moment of illumination that only God grants:
God says through scripture: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 1 Corinthians 1:19
In other words, in a religion that bases it's salvation on a Christ, you have to rely on Him for salvation, not your own mind or its ability to comprehend.
So to understand faith i have to already have faith, but to have faith i have to bypass my need to understand it.
A catch 22 indeed.
My faith about universal connection is through the physical relationship. How we breathe air, or through astro physics how we are connected to the stars.
Very different from a spritual belief system.
What do i believe happens after i die?
I can tell u how my body tissue will break down and how my loved ones will (hopefully) mourn. Will my consciousness carry on somehow? How would i know? That i have no faith in, because it is an unknown.

Comprehension is understanding and understanding is acceptance. (i think).


Quote:
I heard someone talk about this.
Wishful thinking vs faith. It helped me when I was going through this, and
I could give you an mp3, but it won't matter much. If you're missing my point so far, then I doubt
anything will get through to you.
Ur point so far is that i must flip the switch from skeptisicm to faith somehow. But u cant explain how.

Quote:
Difficult!?!?!?!
Not at all.
I've asked alot of the same questions you have and more.
People like you end up being leaders of the faith instead of sheep.
But you HAVE to understand, that all the answers to your questions won't make sense without the work of God, and if I answer your questions you'll miss my this main point.
I've already found answers to all these 'skeptical' questions, cause I've been through them. But ONLY AFTER I 'flipped' my thinking from skepticism to faith.
U have been through 'them'? So u have also been a skeptic? Then how did u get faith?
I feel its not so much a secret u are keeping as much it is somthing u cannot explain.
As i said before about understanding religious belief pyschologically. It destroys the belief.

Quote:
You have 2 steps to get past before entertaining any further thoughts of all this "bull crap" faith stuff.
Is this idea of a GOD even a possibility? If so, is He capable of using man to do His will - like writing & preserving a Bible?
You have to get past those 2 before any further progress.
[/QUOTE]

Its impossible to be certain that there is no God. So, yes, of course there is the possibility there is a God. But i dont believe there is.
And im sure a God could do whatever he chose. Even preserving using some men to write the bible and making sure its preserved for thousands of years.

Just like some people think that every time u place paper into a fire, it isnt a chemical reaction that makes it burn, it is God that makes it burn.

For u to believe God had a hand in the bible or anything deemed miraculous, u must have reaons that defy any alternative natural explanations.
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Old 11-05-2008, 07:48 PM #685
2 Cor 12:7 2 Cor 12:7 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xfrodobagginsx View Post
ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN?

THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT YOU SHOULD KNOW:

1. REALIZE THAT YOU ARE A SINNER AND IN NEED OF A SAVIOR:

Ro 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Ro 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

This all began with the story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. God created them perfect, there was no death or sorrow. God told them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They disobeyed God and as a result, sin entered into the world. The pain which this world sees is the result of sin.

2. BECAUSE OF OUR SINS, WE DIE BOTH SPIRITUALLY AND PHYSICALLY, BUT GOD SENT HIS SON TO TAKE OUR PUNISHMENT AND GIVE US A CHANCE NOT TO HAVE TO GO TO HELL.

Ro 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Ro 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Every person who has ever lived is a sinner and is not righteous because we do bad things. A sin is a crime against God, just as if you steal something at the store, it is punishable by going to jail. It's the same thing with sin. Even if we lie one time, the punishment is hell, which is a prison for those who commit crimes against God. No matter how well you live your life from then on, you have already committed a sin which will be punished if you are not pardoned. If you commit a crime, and then live as a good citizen you still will go to jail for the crime you committed. Right? Just as the president can pardon a crime so you won't go to jail, Jesus can pardon your sins so that you do not go to hell, and can go to heaven when you die.

3. IF WE WILL ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS OUR LORD WITH OUR MOUTHS AND BELIEVE IN OUR HEARTS THAT HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD, BY DOING THIS WE ARE RECEIVING HIM:

Ro 10:9,10 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: {power: or, the right, or, privilege}
(KJV)

You cannot get to heaven by being a good person, going to church, baptism or any other way other than by turning to Jesus and asking Him to forgive you for your sins and save you. While these are good things to do, some people believe that they will get to heaven if they do these things, but the bible says that there is only one way to heaven and that is through receiving what Jesus Christ did on the cross for you.

Will you do that today? If you will, you can be 100% sure that you will go to heaven when you die.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS AND ROSE FROM THE DEAD FOR YOUR SINS? DO YOU ACCEPT WHAT HE DID FOR YOU TO PAY FOR YOUR SINS?

4. If you are willing to receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior please pray this right now, from your heart to God,

"Dear LORD JESUS, I believe that YOU died on the Cross and Rose from the dead for my sins. I ask you to come into my heart and forgive me for my sins, take me to heaven when I die. I now receive You as my Lord and Savior. Thank You for saving me. In Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you prayed that prayer from your heart to God, and meant it with all of your heart, you are now a child of God and will go to heaven when you die.

Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing church and follow in baptism.
this is a great piont and a good post!when i was looking at this site i kep on seein loads of satanic trash like atheists and europans but its good to see some REAL CHRISTIANS and REAL AMERICANS that are fighting against the atheists and muslims on this site.
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Old 11-06-2008, 01:15 PM #686
anonymousboxing anonymousboxing is offline
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Bobby,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Anomaly View Post
Its impossible to be certain that there is no God. So, yes, of course there is the possibility there is a God. But i dont believe there is.
If this is a concrete statement, then our conversation is over.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe it IS concrete.
Because I notice you're stepping out of the realm of your former thinking
to begin questioning WHY God does what he does:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Anomaly View Post
...But he keeps it to himself. And lets us remain confused and skeptical and ignorant heading towards eternal damnation??...
...Can he make torture and suffering the 'right' thing to do??....
...Im sure he understands everything, i dont doubt that....
....im sure a God could do whatever he chose....

You've already stepped out to entertain thoughts of "what if", and that's already a step of faith.
It's hypothetical, i know, but you're asking the right questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Anomaly View Post
Ur point so far is that i must flip the switch from skeptisicm to faith somehow. But u cant explain how.
Now we're getting somewhere!
Scripture does explain how.
According to scripture, alot of explanations I'd like to tell you won't make sense until you take a leap of faith.
Like I already said:

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him" 1 Cor 2:14

"For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words" 1 Corinthian 2:11-13
In order to understand spiritual truths, you need the Spirit of God.
Going back to your question: "How?"
If we need this "SPIRIT" to understand the things of God, how do we get it?
Well, You mentioned you had a son? Take this into consideration:

"Which of you fathers [or mothers], if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil [in comparison to God], know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" Luke 11:11-13
You ask God for it.
Doesn't have to be like "Froddo's" prayer.
To start, challenge God: "God, if you're real, and this so called "Spirit" you freely
give will help me understand you, then give it to me."

See how you've taken a step of faith to pray to a God that you're not even sure exists?

A friend of mine who was in prison started by reading the book of St. John in the Bible. It's the account
of Jesus' life/teachings on earth.
Intelligent guy, foolish to be in prison, but intelligent. He read it, and after he was done,
he just said to himself that he believed it. He ended up being a preacher.
After being in the faith, all the skepticism turns into pillars of your foundation of the faith, cause
the answers come afterwards.
They become reasons WHY you believe. So the people who ask the MOST questions, turn
out to be the leaders.
You're already toying with these thoughts.
Check it out even further.

I know you want hard evidence, and it's difficult to accept, because of the 'catch 22' we discussed.

Why not Pick up a Bible and start with the book of St. John?
At least you can say you checked it out.
See if it's so far fetched, or too hard to believe.
But don't pick it up until you're ready to ask God for this 'so called Spirit', which will help you understand it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Anomaly View Post
....I can give u many reasons why i dont have faith. U havent attempted to give me one reason how u have faith...
...I feel its not so much a secret u are keeping as much it is somthing u cannot explain....
...For u to believe God had a hand in the bible or anything deemed miraculous, u must have reaons that defy any alternative natural explanations......
I'll pick out a few reasons WHY i believe, what I believe. Some of this may help or maybe not.
But you'll notice how a lot of its based on faith, because it's based on things I can't prove. So expect to have objections.

So I believe Jesus was the Messiah, because books of the Bible that were written before he was born anticipated His coming. (notice btw there's faith in God preserving those books over the centuries) For example, the prophet Isaiah around 700 B.C. wrote the prophecies of His virgin birth, His ministry of miracles, and crucifixion with thieves. Micah, another prophet, foretold the city of His birthplace (Micah 5:2). The book of Psalms claimed that his hands and feet would be pierced (Psalms 22:16), that He would suffer on the cross (Psalms 69:21), wouldn’t break any bones (Psa. 22:17), and also foretold His resurrection (Psa. 22:22). There's more prophecies, but in comparison to other religions - I ask myself what other religious leader fulfilled predictions? There were over 60 major prophecies fulfilled by one man. If each was precisely fulfilled, and the scripture claims the Messiah was to fulfill them, then this grabs my attention.
You might've heard of the "famous" Dead Sea Scrolls. Text discovered in caves along the northwest shore of the Dead Sea between the years 1947 and 1956. They date roughly from the end of the third century B.C. to the seventh century A.D. 175 of the 500 scrolls are Biblical. They were untouched for centuries, and when compared to what's been passed on to us today- after translations, copy of copies etc, these OLD scrolls show us books of the Old Testament that we currently have been corrupted over time. The 'whisper down the alley' affect didn't happen from the point they were written up until today.

If you can step out to believe that Jesus was God, and God preserved the Bible from error, then your faith will grow after further study of Scripture. Jesus HIMSELF referred to the old testament part of the Bible (written before Jesus showed up) as God's word.
He said Himself, “have you not read what God said to you...” (Matthew 22:31) but he was referring to scripture written by Moses (Exodus 3:6). So Jesus HIMSELF points out to the concept of God using man to write His Word.

My point is that scripture is intertwined. You're faith will grow if you take small steps of faith, one bit at at time.
Depending on whether you choose to take this step of faith determines whether this information turns into further evidence of not believing or if you're a believer it reaffirms your faith.

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Old 11-06-2008, 05:14 PM #687
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Originally Posted by 2 Cor 12:7 View Post
this is a great piont and a good post!when i was looking at this site i kep on seein loads of satanic trash like atheists and europans but its good to see some REAL CHRISTIANS and REAL AMERICANS that are fighting against the atheists and muslims on this site.
Common 2C, Don't pass judgement on anyone outside of the church.
Scripture says: "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside."
1 Corinthians 5:11-13
Do they upset you because they have a different view? Didn't everyone have a different view before Christianity?
Trampling on people's LACK of faith is no better than trampling on a BELIEVER'S faith.
Look up Luke 6:32 when you get a chance.
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Old 11-06-2008, 10:26 PM #688
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Originally Posted by 2 Cor 12:7 View Post
this is a great piont and a good post!when i was looking at this site i kep on seein loads of satanic trash like atheists and europans but its good to see some REAL CHRISTIANS and REAL AMERICANS that are fighting against the atheists and muslims on this site.
Thank you and God bless. Remember that it's our job to defend the truth of the Word of God.
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Old 11-07-2008, 06:19 AM #689
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]
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymousboxing View Post
Bobby,



If this is a concrete statement, then our conversation is over.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe it IS concrete.
Because I notice you're stepping out of the realm of your former thinking
to begin questioning WHY God does what he does:

You've already stepped out to entertain thoughts of "what if", and that's already a step of faith.
It's hypothetical, i know, but you're asking the right questions.

I would agree that my belief isnt concrete. It is just a belief based on my reasoning.
Me asking WHY God would do certain things is my attempt at understanding ur faith.
Now me asking "How/why does God .....?" is indeed hypothetical, but it is almost pure imagination.
Is a step closer to faith a step away from logical perspective and reality?




Quote:
Now we're getting somewhere!
Scripture does explain how.
According to scripture, alot of explanations I'd like to tell you won't make sense until you take a leap of faith.
Like I already said:

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him" 1 Cor 2:14

"For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words" 1 Corinthian 2:11-13
In order to understand spiritual truths, you need the Spirit of God.
Going back to your question: "How?"
If we need this "SPIRIT" to understand the things of God, how do we get it?
Well, You mentioned you had a son? Take this into consideration:

"Which of you fathers [or mothers], if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil [in comparison to God], know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" Luke 11:11-13
You ask God for it.
Doesn't have to be like "Froddo's" prayer.
To start, challenge God: "God, if you're real, and this so called "Spirit" you freely
give will help me understand you, then give it to me."

See how you've taken a step of faith to pray to a God that you're not even sure exists?
The magic words!
By pretending i believe in God, and asking God to help me believe, i will believe?
Sounds very similar to self delusion.

I wouldnt give my child a snake if he asked for a fish, unless i, being the parent knew that he actually NEEDED the snake more than the fish. And even if a young niave child doesnt ask for something they actually need. Something which is absolutely vital to their well being. A loving parent would give it to them anyway.



Quote:
A friend of mine who was in prison started by reading the book of St. John in the Bible. It's the account
of Jesus' life/teachings on earth.
Intelligent guy, foolish to be in prison, but intelligent. He read it, and after he was done,
he just said to himself that he believed it. He ended up being a preacher.
After being in the faith, all the skepticism turns into pillars of your foundation of the faith, cause
the answers come afterwards.
They become reasons WHY you believe. So the people who ask the MOST questions, turn out to be the leaders.
You're already toying with these thoughts.
Check it out even further.

I know you want hard evidence, and it's difficult to accept, because of the 'catch 22' we discussed.

Why not Pick up a Bible and start with the book of St. John?
At least you can say you checked it out.
See if it's so far fetched, or too hard to believe.
But don't pick it up until you're ready to ask God for this 'so called Spirit', which will help you understand it.
I pick up a bible every now and again. Always interesting. People take what they understand or interpreted to be positive and uplifting, and disregard the rest that doesnt apply to them. The parables can be strange ways of finding meaning in our lives. They seem to defy objective interpretations, But captivate through their poetry.
Il take a look at St John.
But to say to urslef "i believe" after reading the bible, especially only part of it says alot about the psychological NEED to believe. The human yearnings for meaning and hope, especially when in prison or very low, emotionally fragile, can be quenched through religious belief. The unprovable. Talk of 'spiritual understanding'. To me it seems a way of understanding the world that can either be very beneficial to the individual or very dangerous for them and those around them, and gives the perfect excuse to avoid an explanation of their beliefs. They can justify their actions by pointing to their bible or koran.
If u dont understand, its because ur not 'spiritually enlightened'.
What do u say to all the 'crazies' who think they are doing Gods work through suicide bombings or think they epileptic children are possessed? Isnt that also faith at work?


Quote:
I'll pick out a few reasons WHY i believe, what I believe. Some of this may help or maybe not.
But you'll notice how a lot of its based on faith, because it's based on things I can't prove. So expect to have objections.

So I believe Jesus was the Messiah, because books of the Bible that were written before he was born anticipated His coming. (notice btw there's faith in God preserving those books over the centuries) For example, the prophet Isaiah around 700 B.C. wrote the prophecies of His virgin birth, His ministry of miracles, and crucifixion with thieves. Micah, another prophet, foretold the city of His birthplace (Micah 5:2). The book of Psalms claimed that his hands and feet would be pierced (Psalms 22:16), that He would suffer on the cross (Psalms 69:21), wouldn’t break any bones (Psa. 22:17), and also foretold His resurrection (Psa. 22:22). There's more prophecies, but in comparison to other religions - I ask myself what other religious leader fulfilled predictions? There were over 60 major prophecies fulfilled by one man. If each was precisely fulfilled, and the scripture claims the Messiah was to fulfill them, then this grabs my attention.
You might've heard of the "famous" Dead Sea Scrolls. Text discovered in caves along the northwest shore of the Dead Sea between the years 1947 and 1956. They date roughly from the end of the third century B.C. to the seventh century A.D. 175 of the 500 scrolls are Biblical. They were untouched for centuries, and when compared to what's been passed on to us today- after translations, copy of copies etc, these OLD scrolls show us books of the Old Testament that we currently have been corrupted over time. The 'whisper down the alley' affect didn't happen from the point they were written up until today.

If you can step out to believe that Jesus was God, and God preserved the Bible from error, then your faith will grow after further study of Scripture. Jesus HIMSELF referred to the old testament part of the Bible (written before Jesus showed up) as God's word.
He said Himself, “have you not read what God said to you...” (Matthew 22:31) but he was referring to scripture written by Moses (Exodus 3:6). So Jesus HIMSELF points out to the concept of God using man to write His Word.

My point is that scripture is intertwined. You're faith will grow if you take small steps of faith, one bit at at time.
Depending on whether you choose to take this step of faith determines whether this information turns into further evidence of not believing or if you're a believer it reaffirms your faith.
[

I guess when u have faith its the work of God, when u dont, it simply isnt.

Many miraculous things have been proven not to be supernatural. For skeptics, the unexplainable things may never be explained, or maybe one day will be, but they are not signs of Gods work. They are too inconclusive. And surely God wouldnt make such matters of everlasting life and eternal suffering to be so ambiguous. Well, thats the skeptics way of seeing it.


It does all sound like self delusion to me. Wanting to believe somthing badly enough that u do. I have thought of it in the way a boxer trains for a fight believing he will win. It helps his focus and mental attitude. It may even help him win. Being realistic doesnt do him any favours if he is a 42-1 underdog. He would of lost before the bell sounded.
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Old 11-10-2008, 05:48 PM #690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Anomaly View Post
]

I would agree that my belief isnt concrete. It is just a belief based on my reasoning.
Me asking WHY God would do certain things is my attempt at understanding ur faith.
Now me asking "How/why does God .....?" is indeed hypothetical, but it is almost pure imagination.
Is a step closer to faith a step away from logical perspective and reality?
Maybe. But if Christ's claims of being "the way and the truth and the life" (St. John 14:6)
were real, then perhaps 'the truth' of His teachings might also BE reality.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Anomaly View Post
The magic words!
By pretending i believe in God, and asking God to help me believe, i will believe?
Sounds very similar to self delusion.
No! Don't misunderstand me. There are no 'magic words'.
It's just your own prayer/expression of submission by asking for a 'so-called Spirit' that God
offers which helps you understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Anomaly View Post
I wouldnt give my child a snake if he asked for a fish, unless i, being the parent knew that he actually NEEDED the snake more than the fish. And even if a young niave child doesnt ask for something they actually need. Something which is absolutely vital to their well being. A loving parent would give it to them anyway.
Without getting caught up on the details, I think you understand the overall point:
If our children, who we love, ask us for something they need, we wouldn't give them something hazardous to their health instead.
In the same way, God, who's a much better parent than us, will give us this Spirit to help us understand when we ask for it.

I hear your message loud and clear though: Why wouldn't God automatically give us this Spirit without us having to ask for it?

Well, asking for it requires a certain condition of the inner you, doesn't it?

It requires what we mentioned before:
It would require you to be 'easily led', 'vulnerable', 'naive', 'submissive', and 'dependent' as an adult.
The condition of the heart MATTERS to God. Scripture says:

The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart. 1 Samuel 16:7
Scripture also says:
[God] wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth. 1 Timothy 2:4
Which brings us back around to the same question: "Then why doesn't He give us what we need as a parent?"
Christ Himself said...
"...[I] will draw all men to myself." John 12:32
If you ever feel drawn, curious, or inquisitive of the things of God, there might be purpose behind being drawn.

Scripture also says:

"No one is righteous
******
not even one.
No one is truly wise;
******
no one is seeking God"(Romans 3:10 NLT)
It's not natural for us to seek God, so if we ever find ourselves having any desire to question, observe, read, or talk about
the things of God, it might be God's way of intervening while remaining anonymous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Anomaly View Post
I pick up a bible every now and again. Always interesting. People take what they understand or interpreted to be positive and uplifting, and disregard the rest that doesnt apply to them. The parables can be strange ways of finding meaning in our lives. They seem to defy objective interpretations, But captivate through their poetry.
Il take a look at St John.
Let's continue when you're done reading this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Anomaly View Post
But to say to urslef "i believe" after reading the bible, especially only part of it says alot about the psychological NEED to believe. The human yearnings for meaning and hope, especially when in prison or very low, emotionally fragile, can be quenched through religious belief. The unprovable. Talk of 'spiritual understanding'. To me it seems a way of understanding the world that can either be very beneficial to the individual or very dangerous for them and those around them, and gives the perfect excuse to avoid an explanation of their beliefs. They can justify their actions by pointing to their bible or koran.
If u dont understand, its because ur not 'spiritually enlightened'.
Right, the 'crutch'. The human desire to create a superior being in hopes of having someone to depend on.
History proves validity to this. As far back as the 'archives of history' go, we can trace back and see that people
have always created all kinds of gods.

But maybe this is further evidence of the purpose of things.
If we were born with an inner instinct to eventually have kids, which God intends us to do,
could we have also been born with an instinct to worship, which is another thing God intends for us?

And Difficulties in life have a way of overcoming the stubbornness of our thinking to go in search of things outside of what we know. In other words, 'when we're lying flat on our backs there's no other way to look but up'.

Similar to a person who at a young age decides to never get married. They can find MANY reasons why they shouldn't until they finally meet mr or mrs right. Then it's no longer a concept, it becomes something more personal. It becomes all about a person instead of an idea.
It's only a concept or an idea, until that 'something' happens. When it does. It breaks the filter of your thinking, and you begin to experience a different side of what you were skeptical of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Anomaly View Post
What do u say to all the 'crazies' who think they are doing Gods work through suicide bombings or think they epileptic children are possessed? Isnt that also faith at work?
Well, this goes back to our original conversation.
Sincerity doesn't mean your right. A person could sincerely believe they won't die when they jump off of a building, but
the reality of things will catch up to them when they hit the ground.
Just like a person could sincerely believe that God is NOT about love, but about killing. Does that make it
ok? Absolutely not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Anomaly View Post
I guess when u have faith its the work of God, when u dont, it simply isnt.

Many miraculous things have been proven not to be supernatural. For skeptics, the unexplainable things may never be explained, or maybe one day will be, but they are not signs of Gods work. They are too inconclusive. And surely God wouldnt make such matters of everlasting life and eternal suffering to be so ambiguous. Well, thats the skeptics way of seeing it.

It does all sound like self delusion to me. Wanting to believe somthing badly enough that u do. I have thought of it in the way a boxer trains for a fight believing he will win. It helps his focus and mental attitude. It may even help him win. Being realistic doesnt do him any favours if he is a 42-1 underdog. He would of lost before the bell sounded.
Self Delusion? It can be.
The problem is that there's often a disconnect.

Believing in Christ isn't hocus pocus imagination, a mind trip,
or something you set aside until Sundays, Easter, or Christmas.
It's meant for everyday living. It becomes a lifestyle.
For example, Scripture says:
"let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth." 1 John 3:18
Practicing this ONE verse can be very real to those around you, and a challenge to apply, because it goes against our selfish nature...
"everyone looks out for his own interests, not those of Jesus Christ" James 1:22
If we demonstrate the kind of love Christ intends for us to practice, we'll do it not with a
flattering tongue or empty words, but with helpful actions. This alone can be more real than fantasy 'magic', because of how practical it is.

If this is the kind of love you already practice with a spouse or loved ones, then you're already applying something Christ teaches, and not far from this 'road'.
Some 'Christians' are Athiest by practice. That is, they read the word, but they set aside
the teachings by not practicing them. Scripture addresses that issue:
"Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says." James 1:22

In this way, even 'believers' CAN BE deluded.

BUT on regards to those who remain 'unbelievers' forever, IF Christ IS who He says He IS, there might be another delusion:
"The [enemy] of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." 2 Corinthians 4:4

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