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Old 11-12-2019, 01:37 AM #31
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Define Peak ?
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Old 11-12-2019, 01:48 AM #32
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Define Peak ?
On their best day/fight, what would you rate them? To really qualify for a high rating they need to have shown that level in at least a few fights imo.
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Old 11-12-2019, 02:09 AM #33
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Originally Posted by Jalen Rose View Post
On their best day/fight, what would you rate them? To really qualify for a high rating they need to have shown that level in at least a few fights imo.
Sounds good but what if a peak is not one fight, what if a peak is reached a number of times in a different way, like the first Ali and the then the come back Ali , he peaked both times.

Peak is just a zone where youre your physical and mental systems are in harmony and at their most efficient, a great fighter is here most of his career, its a sharp rise then a plateu then a falling off, the plateau can be 20 yrs.

Prime years is the inner bookends of the zone, out of prime is when you are way out of the zone, but both peak and primes are inside an area not a pin point one time only.

If you look at fighters like a machine you then can understand what peak and prime is , in the context you use here it really makes no sense, thats why I asked define peak , and then which fighters were in their peak zone in the fights you mentioned .

If you take all the romance, and emotion out of boxing and look at the machine idea and how in tune it was then the fan BS just disappears.
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Old 11-12-2019, 01:47 PM #34
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Originally Posted by Jalen Rose View Post
OK...but remember the Canelo fight with Floyd was at 152 pounds...and I don't think that was really his best version of himself...Mosley was also 38 vs Floyd and a bit inactive...and then fought Nelo soon thereafter...but thanks for the reply.
True. But would we really consider a 23 year old Canelo "drained"? I wouldnt. A young man should be able to move their weight much easier.

Compared to say a 35+ Oscar vs Pacquiao? Or 30+ Cotto vs Pacquiao?

Again, he can be 38 but his run of form is dramatically different.

By simply "age", then Floyd had to have been whatever you would rate Mosley when Canelo fought him and when Pacquiao fought him as well.

I dont think Floyd has fought anyone older than him since Oscar other than Mosley who demanded the fight in the first place. So using just "age" as a measure of rating. Floyd has to be rated quite low. Even in the fight against Mosley, Floyd was still what? 33? But yeah, thanks for the discussion.
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Old 11-12-2019, 01:58 PM #35
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Originally Posted by Roadblock View Post
Sounds good but what if a peak is not one fight, what if a peak is reached a number of times in a different way, like the first Ali and the then the come back Ali , he peaked both times.

Peak is just a zone where youre your physical and mental systems are in harmony and at their most efficient, a great fighter is here most of his career, its a sharp rise then a plateu then a falling off, the plateau can be 20 yrs.

Prime years is the inner bookends of the zone, out of prime is when you are way out of the zone, but both peak and primes are inside an area not a pin point one time only.

If you look at fighters like a machine you then can understand what peak and prime is , in the context you use here it really makes no sense, thats why I asked define peak , and then which fighters were in their peak zone in the fights you mentioned .

If you take all the romance, and emotion out of boxing and look at the machine idea and how in tune it was then the fan BS just disappears.
No offense but you appear to be making a distinction without a difference here.

The prime/peak of a boxer's career is pretty self-explanatory I think...it is when you are at your best...generally you build up to that peak level in your younger years, and then fall off some as you age...some guys have a longer prime than others...for some it is only a few years, and could be as small as one fight/night.

Last edited by Boxing_1013; 11-12-2019 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 11-12-2019, 02:00 PM #36
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gamboa is prime right now so 10
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Old 11-12-2019, 02:02 PM #37
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Originally Posted by F l i c k e r View Post
True. But would we really consider a 23 year old Canelo "drained"? I wouldnt. A young man should be able to move their weight much easier.

Compared to say a 35+ Oscar vs Pacquiao? Or 30+ Cotto vs Pacquiao?

Again, he can be 38 but his run of form is dramatically different.

By simply "age", then Floyd had to have been whatever you would rate Mosley when Canelo fought him and when Pacquiao fought him as well.

I dont think Floyd has fought anyone older than him since Oscar other than Mosley who demanded the fight in the first place. So using just "age" as a measure of rating. Floyd has to be rated quite low. Even in the fight against Mosley, Floyd was still what? 33? But yeah, thanks for the discussion.
of course you wouldn't because that would make floyd look bad. canelo was prime. 10
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Old 11-12-2019, 02:04 PM #38
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Originally Posted by F l i c k e r View Post
True. But would we really consider a 23 year old Canelo "drained"? I wouldnt. A young man should be able to move their weight much easier.

Compared to say a 35+ Oscar vs Pacquiao? Or 30+ Cotto vs Pacquiao?

Again, he can be 38 but his run of form is dramatically different.

By simply "age", then Floyd had to have been whatever you would rate Mosley when Canelo fought him and when Pacquiao fought him as well.

I dont think Floyd has fought anyone older than him since Oscar other than Mosley who demanded the fight in the first place. So using just "age" as a measure of rating. Floyd has to be rated quite low. Even in the fight against Mosley, Floyd was still what? 33? But yeah, thanks for the discussion.
Yeah I mean I think there is nuance in all of those situations...and some of it comes down to opinion...I think Floyd (largely because he took care of himself inside and outside the ring) aged very well, so he was generally close to his best even as he aged and went up in weight.

For me I just try and look at what weight a guy was fighting at, his age/performance that night, and also his performances before and after that fight as well...the fact that Canelo was fighting a little bit off of his usual weight there just kind of taints that victory imo...and the fact that Canelo imo is pretty clearly in his prime now, and looking back he was much more of a student at that time than a master as he is now.

So yeah before and after the Floyd fight..Canelo's level was very good...but I don't think that version of him could have hung with GGG or Jacobs/Kovalev like he is doing now...so yeah I just think the weight issue and the age make him a decent amount worse of a win than he would be now for example.
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Old 11-12-2019, 04:18 PM #39
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of course you wouldn't because that would make floyd look bad. canelo was prime. 10
Okay, so what is wrong with a young guy moving down to fight then?

A lot.of people on here seem to always claim ducking some higher weight when the fighter chooses to move down of their own free will.

Yet when ita a weight clause, turn around and want it to be something different.

Inconsistencies there. It makes the whole judgement invalid.
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Old 11-12-2019, 04:24 PM #40
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Originally Posted by Jalen Rose View Post
No offense but you appear to be making a distinction without a difference here.

The prime/peak of a boxer's career is pretty self-explanatory I think...it is when you are at your best...generally you build up to that peak level in your younger years, and then fall off some as you age...some guys have a longer prime than others...for some it is only a few years, and could be as small as one fight/night.
Prime and peak isnt the same thing.

Prime is your best with the capability to show more.

You dont peak on a mountain while still capable of looking up.

Peaking, is exactly that. The best a person will probably ever get.

Hence, like when you are on a mountain at its peak, there is only sky left above you.

After you peak, you decline, nothing more.

So instead, I think for you, your concept of prime and peak are exchangeable words. I would suggest you just pick one to use then. For others, that may not be the case. Like for me, for example.

I think Gervonta is in his prime but nowhere near the point where he cant get any better. For you, Gervonta being in his prime means he is at his best already and will only decline after a certain point. (Probably once he loses I presume?)
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