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Old 10-11-2019, 03:24 PM #71
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is offline
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Originally Posted by Dempsey19 View Post
I've heard people say that Lewis would've been seen as some sort of a giant in Marciano's time yet the other day I was watching a tv show set in the 50s and a girl was talking about her perfect husband- 6'4" and blonde. Why would the perfect guy be some sort of a freakishly large giant ? In the 1930s Clark Gable was king- he was not a small man at 6'2", yet he hardly seemed especially tall now did he ? In the 60s we had Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain both extremely tall yet athletic men. There have always been tall people, they are not a new invention nor are they only the product of genetic abnormalities like Acromegaly.

In the end of the day, Buddy Baer was bigger than any modern top heavyweight and by all accounts he was very skilled and hit hard yet that didn't stop him from getting KOed in 1 by little Joe Louis. Even his physically smaller and less polished brother was a better fighter than him.

Shavers wasn't a giant at 6' (Probably more like 5'10") and as little as 202 pounds and Mike Tyson would be giving up 40 pounds to a modern superheavy. Tell me,Who punches harder ?
It's not that they didn't have big people, it's that they had so many less of them.

Marciano never fought anyone Fury's size and ability because they didn't exist. With a larger population pool to draw from, the more likely you are to have that level of talent.

Conversely, the number of small humans has diminished.

120 years ago you had guys like Terry McGovern, today, the same ethnic group produces Tyson Fury.

But there's limitations: we haven't seen any more Foremans or Fraziers. Obviously, other pro-sports have assumed the best and biggest atheltes. But it also appears that there's a size limit for fighting like that.

Dempsey fought 100 years ago. have we seen another Dempsey? Maybe Tyson fits the bill - not mentally, but physically. But that is one guy in 100 years.
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Old 10-12-2019, 07:47 PM #72
The Old LefHook The Old LefHook is offline
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Conversely, the number of small humans has diminished.
Smells like something you dreamed up as plausible and presented as fact.
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Old 10-13-2019, 09:27 AM #73
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is offline
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Smells like something you dreamed up as plausible and presented as fact.
How many men do you know who are 4'11" full grown? In wrestling, there are matches where we wouldn't have lowest weight matches. No kids, even at 14 years old, are that small.

Look at the champions over the past 100 years: how many Welshman are the size of Jimmy Wilde or Wee Willy Davies? Midget Wolgast, Panama Brown, Benny Lynch when did they fight? Probably when Heavyweight champions still didn't weight more than 200 pounds... if even that.

Sure, post WWII, we've seen guys like Jofre, Chandler and Fenech. But there are fewer and fewer athletes that size.

The majority of fighters in the lower weight divisions come from non-Western developed nations.

Conversely, we're getting guys like Semmy Shilt and Tyson Fury, the likes of whom had never been seen before.
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Old 10-13-2019, 09:34 AM #74
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is offline
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Smells like something you dreamed up as plausible and presented as fact.
If you wanted to be an adult, and have a real discussion, the argument you would make is that the sport has changed:

1) You can't turn professional at 16. Historically, we see a lot of fighters from the lowest weights achieving career-defining success before they would have finished college. So A) they weren't full grown specimens, and B) the tolls of the sport meant they retired before they actually could reach their physical prime.

The same person, coming of age today, would be associated with heavier weight classes since they'd be debuting at an older age, and the career would progress slower and more carefully

2) Modern fighters often make severe weight cuts, but they are also allowed to rehydrate, and they enter the ring with a lot more muscle.

So a fighter who today steps on the scale weighing 122 pounds, might actually enter the ring around 135: in previous generations, that would make him a Lightweight.
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Old 10-13-2019, 05:31 PM #75
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More made up bull. Who do you think you are fooling?
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Old 10-13-2019, 09:11 PM #76
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Originally Posted by Rusty Tromboni View Post
If you wanted to be an adult, and have a real discussion, the argument you would make is that the sport has changed:

1) You can't turn professional at 16. Historically, we see a lot of fighters from the lowest weights achieving career-defining success before they would have finished college. So A) they weren't full grown specimens, and B) the tolls of the sport meant they retired before they actually could reach their physical prime.

The same person, coming of age today, would be associated with heavier weight classes since they'd be debuting at an older age, and the career would progress slower and more carefully

2) Modern fighters often make severe weight cuts, but they are also allowed to rehydrate, and they enter the ring with a lot more muscle.

So a fighter who today steps on the scale weighing 122 pounds, might actually enter the ring around 135: in previous generations, that would make him a Lightweight.

Here is some evidence to support your assertions in regards to size increase over the past century

[Link View Has Been Removed. Click Here To Unlock This Content.]
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Old 10-14-2019, 01:02 AM #77
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Originally Posted by Rusty Tromboni View Post

2) Modern fighters often make severe weight cuts, but they are also allowed to rehydrate, and they enter the ring with a lot more muscle.

So a fighter who today steps on the scale weighing 122 pounds, might actually enter the ring around 135: in previous generations, that would make him a Lightweight.
- -Nah, typically LW cutting wt back before entering the ring weighed at least 140 if not 145.

Most young fighters can dehydrate a gallon of water, ie near 9 lbs. Not eating for a couple days might drop 2 more. They could drop even more but for they'd be dead at the weight.

Today they can drop more water and muscle to have an extra day to replenish which is why this era is so dangerous for fighters, esp as they age, hence modern multi prefight weighins that allow the orgs to scratch a fighter not in serious training or having outgrown his wt class for a title fight.

Sadly, this was never the commish mandate, but for title fights they have to go along with it.

Nontitle fighters still on their own!
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Old 10-19-2019, 03:27 AM #78
Dempsey19 Dempsey19 is offline
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Rusty Tromboni: there seem to be very few great fighters beyond the Buddy Baer/Tyson Fury/Vitali Klitschko/Jess Willard size so perhaps that is the upper limit for a good fighter. Get into Robert Helenius/Too tall jones territory.


On a side note, does anyone think Holyfield Jr is a hint towards Holyfield’s natural size ?

Last edited by Dempsey19; 10-19-2019 at 03:32 AM.
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Old 10-19-2019, 06:12 AM #79
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Originally Posted by Dempsey19 View Post
Rusty Tromboni: there seem to be very few great fighters beyond the Buddy Baer/Tyson Fury/Vitali Klitschko/Jess Willard size so perhaps that is the upper limit for a good fighter. Get into Robert Helenius/Too tall jones territory.


On a side note, does anyone think Holyfield Jr is a hint towards Holyfield’s natural size ?
- -Evan Field Jr?

Had a friend who was a 5-1, 100 lb game****. Pop was a 6-3, 300 lb behemoth. We see these types of genetic discrepancies quite often.
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Old 10-19-2019, 09:15 AM #80
Rusty Tromboni Rusty Tromboni is offline
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Originally Posted by Dempsey19 View Post
Rusty Tromboni: there seem to be very few great fighters beyond the Buddy Baer/Tyson Fury/Vitali Klitschko/Jess Willard size so perhaps that is the upper limit for a good fighter. Get into Robert Helenius/Too tall jones territory.


On a side note, does anyone think Holyfield Jr is a hint towards Holyfield’s natural size ?
Billeau might better speak to this, but I recall him saying that Tunney had thoughts on what the ideal wait is for a fighter.

Guys like Fury and Semmy Shilt show that humans are constantly defying our conceptions.

But it definitely seems that the bigger you get, the more detrimental it becomes. And the bigger you get the more parity exists between you and men bigger than you.

Holyfield Jr. is a hint to his maternal grandfather's natural size. Just like Spinks Jr. was no reflexion of Neon Leon in size or talent.
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