Rocky Marciano is not a top ten all time heavyweight and I'll tell you why

[McGoorty]

why are you deflecting....this is a Marciano thread.

That video did nothing to change how I feel about Johnson. There is footage of him, newspaper accounts and his opponent accounts


get over it...its just my opinion. You have yours, I have mine.


Jack Johnson was also greater than Marciano and his resume was better as well, as were his skills

As that video says, Johnson never had to fight a sophisticated pressure fighter and Rocky was just that... You say he has no skills and I scoff at that opinion, Rocky was ever better at pressure fighting than Tyson and Frazier and I don't think Jack Johnson has a comfortable night against him at all.

[McGoorty]

pfffft

You can only measure ones chin by who one got hit by...Marciano has fought fought 39 guys under 200 pounds who arent ranked up there as the hardest hitters ...not even remotely close. At least you're smarter than the clown above " marchegiano" whos little rant is quite not just amusing but one of the little fat kid with ADD disorder as I would picture him in real life.


Theres simply no evidance Marciano withstands a punch from Tyson. I would ima gine the first direct punch to the chin or temple causes a severe cut open and he gets pummeled. If he doesn't fall which ,lets be real even in the history section that's rare...would be the most likely scenerio.

I will give that post the respect it deserves.

[juggernaut666]

I will give that post the respect it deserves.

Tyson wearing those little no padded gloves would be a joke in itself against such a flat footed 185 pounder who was known to cut , i imagine it would look like someone standing on the railroad tracks and anyone who actually thinks any size gloves changes a Tyson /Marciano complete mis match needs their head examined to think that its not.

Not that I always listen to this guy coxx ,however like you hes a nostalgic nut who loves his past timers...heres what he thinks as well......



Rock Against Iron



Marciano versus Tyson. Who Would Win?




By: Monte D. Cox









Introduction:

Rocky Marciano, the “Brockton Blockbuster”, reined as heavyweight champion from 1952-1956 retiring with an impressive record of 49-0. He is the only unbeaten, untied champion in boxing history. He made 6 successful defenses of the heavyweight title before retiring as champion.

“Iron” Mike Tyson was the youngest heavyweight champion in history at age 20. He cut a swath through the heavyweight division from 1986 to 1990 and was one of the most feared heavyweight champions ever. He made 9 successful title defenses before losing in an upset to Buster Douglas. He continued his career with limited success thereafter, although he was never quite the same after his loss to Douglas and a prison incarceration in the early-mid 1990's. Tyson's 23 first round knockouts are third in division history to Jack Dempsey (25) and Earnie Shavers (24).

This is a match up between two of the heavyweight divisions greatest knockout punchers. Who would win if Rocky Marciano met Mike Tyson in their considered primes?



The Analysis

The first thing one notices when looking at the tale of the tape in a match up of Rock versus Iron is the size difference. While they are about the same height Tyson clearly has an overall advantage in size. He is bigger and stronger on paper. While size is not the most important issue, Tyson, weighing in at 216 (his weight for the Spinks fight) would have a 31-pound weight and strength advantage over Marciano.

Some argue that the former cruiserweight Evander Holyfield beat Tyson and therefore so could Marciano. However, Holyfield had a tall frame and was able to add more muscular strength. When Evander fought Tyson he weighed 215 pounds and was in great physical shape at that weight. Marciano, like Holyfield, was a conditioning horse but he fought at his best weight which was around 185 pounds.

Evander Holyfield scored a victory over Tyson in one of Mike's legacy fights, a loss for Tyson. But in a comparison, Holyfield and Marciano have almost nothing in common except conditioning, and physical and mental toughness. This is an important ingredient one must have in order to be able to turn the fight on Tyson if one can survive the initial onslaught. In terms of style however, one can easily see that Marciano did not fight at all like Holyfield. Evander was primarily a boxer and a counter-puncher with a good jab. Marciano was a crouching slugger who came in low and threw a lot of punches, often wildly until his opponent's wilted. The only thing Marciano and Holyfield have in common is a strong chin and a will to win that is greater than that of Tyson. Marciano had much better stamina and better one punch hitting power than Holyfield, but Rocky did not possess Holyfield's speed, punching accuracy, quick multi-punch combinations or countering ability.

Mike Tyson is very similar to Jack Dempsey in his style of fighting. He was a bob and weaver, he threw his right to the body just like Dempsey, he was explosive in the early rounds, and had the same type of killer instinct. Dempsey was more durable and fought better when hurt.

I am reminded of the following story from the from the Dec 1988 Ring Magazine, "Tyson and Dempsey: Is History Repeating Itself?" Writer John Reeves wrote about an incident in a bar while viewing the Tyson-Pinklon Thomas fight. Reeves had said to an old pug watching the fight, "A lot like Marciano huh?"

"Not really" the old man replied, "I wouldn't say so. He fights more like Dempsey." He stared at the young fan for a moment then turned his attention back to the screen. "But a guy your age wouldn't know too much about Dempsey", he said. There was almost a hint of sympathy in his retort."

There are a lot of similarities between Tyson and Dempsey. Reeves noted, "Like Tyson, Dempsey fought out of a crouch, constantly moving in a bobbing and weaving fashion so taller men would be forced to punch down at a mobile target. Both learned to pressure their way inside and unleash furious volleys of head and body punches. Both ended a lot of fights early with devastating power."

Looking at Marciano and Tyson one sees that both are aggressive swarming style fighters. Marciano threw alot of punches, but was wild and lacked punching acuracy. He was an "anywhere hitter," he didn't aim his punches, but anywhere he hit it hurt. Tyson was a two-fisted dynamo with fantastic hand speed, punching accuracy, great combination and counter-punching ability. They would meet at ring center and there would be few backward steps. The fireworks would start immediately.


The Outcome

Consider the opinion of veteran boxing writer and analyst Dan Daniel from the May 1956 Ring Magazine concerning a potential Marciano-Dempsey fight, "Dempsey would have stopped Rocky because Marciano would have taken too long to hurt the Mauler. Rocco usually warms up to his task slowly, and usually doesn't get to that point until about the eighth round. Once he has worn down his man, Rocky hurts plenty. Dempsey was no feeler-outer. The bell rang, and he went right to work, no dilly-dallying. He gave everything he had all the way."

Marciano was much like Joe Frazier in this regard, although he was capable of scoring the occasional early rounds knockout most of his fights against quality opposition, like those against Don ****ell and Archie Moore, were fights where he took a few rounds to warm up. Dempsey tried to rip your head off in the opening session. Tyson was the same way. Tyson's speed allows him to get there first. Razor Ruddock after his fight with Tyson said, "I was suprised by his speed." Virtually everyone Tyson fought said they were amazed by his hand speed, and of course his power is among the best of all heavyweights of history.

Marciano is a great fighter, more determined and tougher than Mike Tyson, but Tyson is a bad match up for him stylistically. Tyson can be beaten if his will is tested, but all things considered, Tyson's speed, quick start, superior hand speed, great power and punching accuracy will be too much for Rocky to survive the early rounds attack of Tyson. Rocky’s slower start and vulnerability against sharp punchers like Walcott and Moore, neither of whom had anything close to Tyson's power at heavyweight proves his vulnerability in the early rounds.

This hypothesis is confirmed by watching the films. Recently I viewed some films of Marciano and Tyson on the same evening. One cannot help but notice how wild Marciano can be with his punches. He comes in low and covers up in his crouch but he is off balance and exposed when he misses, which is often. The young Tyson on film looks so much better. He slips, and counters, dodges and counters, dips and counters and moves his head very quickly. He comes in tight and throws nice short punches. It is just this type of fighter who would really make Marciano pay for his amateurish mistakes. Get wild against Tyson and one winds up looking at the ceiling. Marciano has to survive Tyson's big counters. If Rocky can make it past the first few rounds he will win. But can he?

Marciano never faced a strong heavyweight puncher who weighed over 200 pounds except a faded, old Joe Louis in his last fight. The two strongest and sharpest hitters that Marciano faced Jersy Joe Walcott and light-heavyweight champion Archie Moore both put Rocky on the deck. Walcott and Moore weighed well under 200 pounds. Tyson, bigger, faster, stronger, and with more explosive accurate punches busts up the rock like an iron hammer smashing up gravel. Tyson's quick start ends things before Marciano has a chance to warm up and test Tyson's will. Iron Mike over Rocky by early rounds knockout.


Reality > Fantasy


One can make a case for JJ beating Rocky or vice versa ,but Rocky beating Tyson ? ...well I also used to believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny as well......we'll leave it at that.

[therealpugilist]

To hold wins over the likes of Walcott, Moore and Charles can not make you overrated.

it does when they were grandfathers win you beat them.

[therealpugilist]

6) What the **** does having more power have to do with nostalgia? Rocky Marciano broke people, if you can't think of a logical reason as to why the magical George Foreman has stronger bones than humanly possible you don't have an argument for that point. You're just being defensive at this point. Arguing because I came at you strong like. Quit being a *****.

7) Yeah, too small for what? I asked who covered more space, I asked who hit harder, I asked who was hit harder, and I got back "him too small, him too crude" I told you if you believe Marciano's crude you're buying into his game plan and supporter it by asking why do you think great movers like Charles just stood there and got back " But Foreman doe" are ****ing serious? Foreman, he's gonna move like Charles...right...he's done that ****ing ever...sure. So here's the probabilities boy-o, if Foreman, huge as he is, goes punch to punch with Marciano he's gonna lose because he doesn't hit as hard as Rock's taken and can't possibly simply eat the punches. If he tries to box Marciano he's gonna get baited into a punch to punch situation, better, more refined, boxers did. All yer gonna say is " But him big, but him skilled, but him fought Ali, but him beat Frasier" none of which changes or even addresses what I said. you're a moron.

8) I didn't ask you to restate what I already know you think. I asked you to justify your stance and supposed you couldn't because you lack depth in the 50s. If you think what you said leans more to the latter than former that's great for you. I'd say quite the opposite. Who didn't see a half-assed opinion with no mention of anything specific to support it coming? Was he a good fighter for MW-HW in the 50s? Justify that ****. Don't think I'll let you off just because you said some **** I'm likely to agree with. I didn't come at you the way I did because of yer opinion, but what supports it. I don't give a **** if you think Harry was good or ****. I want you to show some depth in 1950s boxing. I can wait while you research, we both know you need to.

9) Because nothing I said has anything to do with it? Because you missed the point. I'm telling you point blank no bull****, no hinting, I don't believe you are as knowledgeable of anything post Ali as you front like you are. Again, rambling off something that can be read online in an article headline, you wouldn't even need to read the damn thing, or some facts that you pulled from boxrec, does not equate to context and understanding.

I spoke about a lot of issues you completely ignored, and when you did address me more often then not you missed the point. I suggest you back and reread and rerespond to my original response again instead of continuing this. I will just repeat and rewash until my points are addressed anyway. You could have at least tackeled w-l ratio and how often people fought.

10) I don't give a rats ****ing ass. I honestly think I'm funny, and I do think the fact no one can say don ****ell's name here is a god damned sin against humanity. ****ing hate crime that is, init? Can't hear ****, can't read ****, **** mustn't ever be used ever. To hell with anyone who did big things named **** because stopping **** is totally more important than remembering ****ell right? Sorry UK, one of yer finest was named the wrong name so we've to obscure his name.

Unbecoming? Sure man, I'm a ****ing clown, dig it or don't, I'm also one the more historically versed boxing fans you're gonna find online and willing to speak with you. So if you don't care for the clown focus on the history bud. It's not meant to be like mean, there's a lot of ****s and stupid and whatnot, but it's meant to just be vulgar. Like a cranky old guy on a sitcom or some such. Because normal is pretty boring. you ****.

you typed all that and none of it is a legitimate argument why he should be considered a top ten ATG heavyweight...he wasnt.....he was a great fighter in a crap division.


Get over it

[therealpugilist]

Oh man you are severely underrating his chin which is the best in heavyweight history .. you also do the same to his punching power... Marciano is easily top 10

top ten for fighters under 200 lbs.


I doubt his chin could stand 15 rounds against Liston, Foreman, Shavers, etc.

these guys were true heavyweights. Charles prime was 175 and started at 160, Walcott was past prime, Moore was never a legit heavy, Matthews was a former middleweight as well.

Fighting smallish guys make your chin look great but he never faced many heavies over 200 and over 6'

[ShoulderRoll]

Oh man you are severely underrating his chin which is the best in heavyweight history .. you also do the same to his punching power... Marciano is easily top 10

Are you saying that Marciano had the best chin in heavyweight history? If so I don't think I agree with that. He was dropped twice by old men, one of whom was also a blown up light heavyweight.

Usually when I think of a great chins I think of guys who in their prime were never knocked off their feet against the biggest of punchers. Like Oliver McCall, George Chuvalo, and Ray Mercer for example.

[therealpugilist]

As that video says, Johnson never had to fight a sophisticated pressure fighter and Rocky was just that... You say he has no skills and I scoff at that opinion, Rocky was ever better at pressure fighting than Tyson and Frazier and I don't think Jack Johnson has a comfortable night against him at all.

I never said he had no skills but in comparison to Holyfield, Tyson, and others his skills look primitive, he got hit an awful lot.

Sure he wont he title vs walcott but got beat like a bad habit in the process. One punch isnt gonna bail you out everytime, especially at the top level and Walcott was highly inconsistent and Johnson was not.

Do i think Johnson would have beat him? Yes...would have it been easy? Idk

Tyson and Frazier had to deal with tougher opponents. bigger, more athletic, and some like Holyfield would dominate that crap division Rocky was in. Put Rocky in their with Mercer, Tyson, Bowe, and Lewis and he wouldnt see the 6th round. How can you say he was a better pressure fighter yet Frazier and Tyson had to deal with much bigger men, more athletic and better overall competition.

Do i see rocky beating Ali of the early 70s....hell no

Do I see rocky walking through Lewis, Holyfield, Tony Tucker, Ruddock etc...hell no

Rocky dealt with guys 5'10-6' barely over 200s where as Frazier who was 205 and 5'10 dealt with guys 220+ and 6'3"+....Tyson fought much bigger fighters than Frazier

So since you think rocky is better, that means he couldve defeated foreman, and holyfield right? Hell no he gets mashed to bits


Rocky is overrated as **** and beat a washed up joe louis and blown up light heavyweights

[MisterHardtop]

it does when they were grandfathers win you beat them.

Age is a little irrelevant when talking of the Old Mongoose, considering he would challenge for the heavyweight crown yet again and win the light heavyweight crown too. All this post Marciano.

In terms of Charles, who was a former title holder, Marciano was only a year younger at the time. Walcott of course was champ, so that fight was not to be avoided.

[ShoulderRoll]

Ezzard Charles was Marciano's best win in my opinion. He was still young and very good. He was, however, a blown up light heavyweight and not a true heavy.

Walcott was old and so was Archie. I won't even bother bringing up the shell of Joe Louis.

All in all he had a 3+ year title reign with 6 successful defenses. A good career and it's an accomplishment to finish undefeated....but there have been more impressive championship runs in the division. And I think there have been several champions who would have beat him head-to-head, prime vs prime.