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Old 03-15-2018, 03:13 PM #71
Mr Objecitivity Mr Objecitivity is offline
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[QUOTE=sugar ray lenrd;18575271]
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Originally Posted by Mr Objecitivity View Post
Yes, Wladimir Klitschko was never the 'undisputed champion'. But that was because there were more belts + more boxers from more countries competing = it was much more difficult to become the undisputed champion during the Klitschko era than it was during Ali's era.

Sugar Ray Lenrd:
You gotta be kidding. You have it twisted sir, It was much easy to grab a world title in klitchko's era. Think about it, the more title holders the easy it is to become a champion. By klitchkos era standards Gerry Quary, Ron Lyle, Jimmy Young, Earnie Shavers, George Chuvalo, Oscar Bonavena, Carl Williams, Ray Merger, Gerry Cooney would have been World Champions. And that's just a few names of the top of my head.
You've committed a straw man fallacy! My point was that it was much more difficult to become the 'UNDISPUTED CHAMPION' whilst also remaining one when there are more belts than when there are less belts around. This is just common sense!
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Old 03-15-2018, 03:20 PM #72
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A good response, but I don’t think those reasons are good enough. Floyd Patterson, himself a small heavyweight, preceded Tyson as the youngest ever heavyweight champion. Patterson was only six feet tall, and had a much smaller frame. He also became the first heavyweight to regain the title after losing it — something Tyson never did. Youth and size are valid considerations for ranking on this list, but you need much more than that.

You allude to the main reason why I don’t think Tyson belongs that high in your last two sentences. I’ve said on many occasions that Mike Tyson, at his very peak, might’ve beaten any heavyweight that ever lived. But as you said yourself, Tyson's peak was short. In fact, it was a blink. His two best wins were an overmatched Michael Spinks and an over-the-hill Larry Holmes. After that, Tyson lost every big fight he was involved in. He even fell victim to possibly the biggest upset in boxing history. The “whys and wherefores” are immaterial. The fact is, they happened.

I don’t believe Tyson belongs on a top-ten heavyweights list, but I can see someone putting him at the bottom...maybe. What I can’t see is how he could possibly rate higher than Muhammad Ali, a man most boxing experts and fans have as the #1 heavyweight of all time, and is often cited as the #2 P4P, behind “Sugar” Ray Robinson.
I understand your point, But give Tyson his props, He did wiped out the Heavywgt division. He beat Trevor Berbick for the WBC title, won the WBA title from James Bonecrusher Smith (my fellow Times Square Boxing Gym alumni), beat formidable opponents Tucker (beat him by dec 6 yrs before Lennox did by dec as well), Pinklon Thomas, Tyrell Biggs, Frank Bruno (KO'd him 4 years before Lennox did), beat Razor Ruddick in 2 tough bouts 1 by ko & the other by dec. before Lennox fought him. It can be argued that those 2 fights took a lot out of Ruddick)
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Old 03-15-2018, 03:26 PM #73
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Originally Posted by Mr Objecitivity View Post
In terms of accomplishments:

1) Wladimir Klitschko

2) Lennox Lewis

3) Vitali Klitschko

4) Mike Tyson

5) Evander Holyfield

6) Muhammad Ali

7) Larry Holmes

8) George Foreman

9) Joe Frazier

10) Joe Louis
In terms of accomplishment shouldn't Louis be number one since he had 25 consecutive title defenses in a one title era?

And what do you base Vitally being number 3 on?
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Old 03-15-2018, 03:32 PM #74
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ABC alphabet titles really don't matter much to me. What matters more to me is who you beat, irrespective of whether you hold any alphabet titles. And beating the best available opposition from the top 10 / 5 ranking at a consistent basis proves one's greatness over a period of time. That's exactly what Wladimir Klitschko did and the belts are only there to show for it. That's all! Nothing more!

I think common sense would dictate that when there are more belts around, it's much more difficult to become the undisputed champion. It's much more difficult to win 5 titles independently from 5 different opponents to become undisputed than it is to win 2 belts to become the undisputed champion. Wladimir Klitschko objectively held just as many belts, if not more for a longer period of time than Muhammad Ali did.

Majority of Joe Louis's reign were against opponents with losing records (more losses than wins in their records) and against sub heavyweights (opponents weighing less than 200 pounds). Modern heavyweights like the Klitschkos wouldn't even be allowed to defend their titles against such opponents. They'd be deemed mismatches but in Joe Louis's case, they aren't.

And I disagree! I think Ruslan Chagaev would beat Joe Frazier. I believe Alexander Povetkin would beat any of Muhammad Ali's opponents and Samuel Peter vs George Foreman would be a true 50/50 fight.

I've seen Joe Frazier's fights and he looks like a inferior version of Ruslan Chagaev. Not to mention, he is blind in one eye and is extremely one dimensional. He just ducks down, comes up with his head and throws a left hook and then repeat...... This is what he does for pretty much the whole fight.

1970's version of George Foreman really wasn't better than Samuel Peter in anyway. They were both power punchers with horrible technique.
Wow.

Just wow.
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Old 03-15-2018, 03:46 PM #75
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[QUOTE=Mr Objecitivity;18575402]
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You've committed a straw man fallacy! My point was that it was much more difficult to become the 'UNDISPUTED CHAMPION' whilst also remaining one when there are more belts than when there are less belts around. This is just common sense!
Pardon me mate, I certainly misunderstood. And yes it is common sense. Just as it's common sense to understand that to become a heavyweight champion in Ali's era it was much harder. I really don't put too many importance into owning all these belts. The people know who the real heavyweight champion is.
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:10 PM #76
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I understand your point, But give Tyson his props, He did wiped out the Heavywgt division. He beat Trevor Berbick for the WBC title, won the WBA title from James Bonecrusher Smith (my fellow Times Square Boxing Gym alumni), beat formidable opponents Tucker (beat him by dec 6 yrs before Lennox did by dec as well), Pinklon Thomas, Tyrell Biggs, Frank Bruno (KO'd him 4 years before Lennox did), beat Razor Ruddick in 2 tough bouts 1 by ko & the other by dec. before Lennox fought him. It can be argued that those 2 fights took a lot out of Ruddick)
Tyson was a beast in his prime. There’s no doubt. I watched his assault as it unfolded. (We’re almost the same age.) There are those that think Tyson was terribly overrated and those that overate him. I think I fall somewhere in between. Those wins are nice, but I still don’t think they’re enough to put “Iron” Mike on a top-ten heavies list, and certainly not above Ali. I’ve already illustrated my reasons why.

I made my way up to the Times Square Gym a few times back in the late eighties/early nineties. Met Emile Griffith there, watched some top fighters spar. I’ll never forget that long-ass stairway. Lol Cheers.
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:14 PM #77
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You have to put Iron Mike in the top 10. Dude unified the Heavyweight division and defended the belt multiple times by the age of 21. That will NEVER be done again.

Truth is prime Tyson was over at the age of 22. He was never the same fighter after the Spinks fight but what he did before then gets him in the top 10 for sure IMO.

He was basically a boxing prodigy. An extraordinary talent that burnt out quickly but what he did in his prime was incredible.
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:20 PM #78
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Tyson was a beast in his prime. There’s no doubt. I watched his assault as it unfolded. (We’re almost the same age.) There are those that think Tyson was terribly overrated and those that overate him. I think I fall somewhere in between. Those wins are nice, but I still don’t think they’re enough to put “Iron” Mike on a top-ten heavies list, and certainly not above Ali. I’ve already illustrated my reasons why.

I made my way up to the Times Square Gym a few times back in the late eighties/early nineties. Met Emile Griffith there, watched some top fighters spar. I’ll never forget that long-ass stairway. Lol Cheers.
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Cuba,
Emile Griffith god rest his soul! My Trainer was Raffy Correa. Him, Emile, Bernard, Georgy Colon, Benito Soto, Johnny Pearson, Carlos Espada, Donald Hayes, Tony Trickman Norris & my Grandfather of Boxing the owner Jimmy Glenn. All these trainers were great! There are some others I left out. But hey I was there from 1980-88. And yes those stairs were waaaaay long. Did you get to go to the lockers? cause them stairs just kept going up. Wow them were some special times.
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:29 PM #79
sugar ray lenrd sugar ray lenrd is offline
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Tyson was a beast in his prime. There’s no doubt. I watched his assault as it unfolded. (We’re almost the same age.) There are those that think Tyson was terribly overrated and those that overate him. I think I fall somewhere in between. Those wins are nice, but I still don’t think they’re enough to put “Iron” Mike on a top-ten heavies list, and certainly not above Ali. I’ve already illustrated my reasons why.

I made my way up to the Times Square Gym a few times back in the late eighties/early nineties. Met Emile Griffith there, watched some top fighters spar. I’ll never forget that long-ass stairway. Lol Cheers.
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Also Emile Griffith was also an excellent trainer! He could get anyone in top condition to fight 15 rounds. I saw before my very own eyes how these trainers would prepare their fighters to fight 15 rds. Are from NYC? I remember when my trainer would have to travel with other pro fighters out of the country & he would have Emile to look after me....damn that man would train you till your tears came out.
Anyway good talking to you brother!
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:00 PM #80
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Cuba,
Emile Griffith god rest his soul! My Trainer was Raffy Correa. Him, Emile, Bernard, Georgy Colon, Benito Soto, Johnny Pearson, Carlos Espada, Donald Hayes, Tony Trickman Norris & my Grandfather of Boxing the owner Jimmy Glenn. All these trainers were great! There are some others I left out. But hey I was there from 1980-88. And yes those stairs were waaaaay long. Did you get to go to the lockers? cause them stairs just kept going up. Wow them were some special times.
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Also Emile Griffith was also an excellent trainer! He could get anyone in top condition to fight 15 rounds. I saw before my very own eyes how these trainers would prepare their fighters to fight 15 rds. Are from NYC? I remember when my trainer would have to travel with other pro fighters out of the country & he would have Emile to look after me....damn that man would train you till your tears came out.
Anyway good talking to you brother!
A pleasure, sir.

Yes, Iím originally from NYC. Back in those days I spent some time around ďThe Deuce,Ē hanging out like a lot of NYC kids. I started working in the area in the late eighties. I never ran into him, but Mike Tyson used to frequent Times Square back then. I recall seeing his white Lamborghini jeep parked on Broadway once. (Never saw another one before or since.)

I met Emile through a friend who was a boxing writer. He was a very nice man with a broad smile. I remember watching Saul Mamby work the bag once. I can still see that big glass that faced 42 Street, right next to the ring. I never made it to the lockers. I was just a visitor. Been thirty years since then. The way my memoryís going, Iím impressed I remember this much. Lol But itís always that way, isnít it? You remember the distant past fairly well, but not what you had for breakfast.
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