James Toney; Most overrated fighter of the 90's?

[sonnyboyx2]

Yeah, kind of like you do when it comes to Lennox Lewis or Marvin Hagler. And then refuse to acknowledge any links proving you wrong because you were there, so only your interpretation counts.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

i have never claimed Lewis or Hagler to be the most overrated fighter of their era..They were both far from it.

[Anthony342]

Didn't say you did. I said you made excuses for all their wins and showed a bias against them, exactly what you're trying to claim about Dan when it comes to Toney.

[billeau2]

Didn't say you did. I said you made excuses for all their wins and showed a bias against them, exactly what you're trying to claim about Dan when it comes to Toney.

Everybody seems to get locked in to a position and when they do nobody wants to admit they might be biased. I think the nice thing is that through this thread it was established that toney was great and imo Dan does have a few points that are good ones. But after looking at all the info here I don't think Toney is overrated. I do think he could have been more dominant at times and more consistant. I do think all things being equal this could hurt toney when compared to a fighter who did not have these inconsistancies.

While on the subject Toney deserves special consideration for the Nunn fight imo, he was not really far behind as I see it, and he did use the time to set up his KO.

Where Dan really shines is the notion that because toney could not get his **** together this should detracht from the other fighter's victory...i don't buy that anymore than the people who want to qualify Ward's win over Dawson because Dawson was allegedly drained. If people would watch that fight and see how Ward won they would see how crafty that victory was. Ward literally had Dawson dropping the back hand until he could sneak the hook in over the hand. I don't know if being drained had anything to do with it.

[ShoulderRoll]

I've seen that said.

I don't recall seeing someone call him an ATG.

I can find several instances in Boxing Scene alone. If I extend the search to other boxing forums I'm sure I going to find more of the same as I've come across it many times over the years.

For my money the most overrated fighters of the 90s might be Tszyu and Naseem Hamed




http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/ne...te=1&p=7138902

he's prob top 3 ATG at 140...so he has to be top 100 ATG overall.

Yes, Kostya Tszyu is a top 100 ATG. I'd place him somewhere between #75 and #90.

He didnt just beat VERNON,he completly dominate him the all fight.

I think he was ranked P4P number 1,and he was undisputed world champ.

KOSTYA top 100 ATG fo sure!

top 100. why not.

Kostya Tszyu is probably the greatest light welterweight of all time.
I dont think he gets the credit he deserves.

[IronDanHamza]

I brought quite a lot to the table, However what was the point, when you used yourself as Judge & Jury and had already found the guy guilty before the trial.

You made excuse after excuse, then more excuses. his knock outs were meaningless, his comebacks were meaningless, his heavyweight achievements were meaningless. The judges were wrong, the judges were wrong again. He tested positive, His opponent was past it, he never won coz i had the other guy winning etc etc.

James Toney was voted Fighter of the Year TWICE in the 90s..He won world titles in 3 weight divisions and campaigned successfully in 5 weight divisions. He defeated 10 world champions.. Yet you claim he is the most overrated of ALL FIGHTERS who fought during the 1990-2000 period

You then say, "I brought absolutely nothing to the debate table"

Nah. Not true at all.

I gave Toney credit for all his wins, even the ones he scraped. I even gave Toney credit for his close loss to Griffin the second time and his draw with Sanderline Williams.

You say I'm the judge and jury yet you're the one who said Toney should have won 6 more times than he was awarded by the judges So what sense does that make?

Laughably claim that Toney dominated McCallum the 2nd time and was "robbed" against Griffin x2 and Rahman. So it's you that thinks they're the judge and jury here.

How are they excuses? Firstly I never said any of Toney's wins were meaningless except Holyfield's fossil. Secondly, how is that he tested positive an excuse? The fight with John Ruiz is a NO CONTEST I don't give credit for No contest bouts. The only contender Toney beat at Heavyweight was Holyfield's shell so forgive me if I don't rate that as amazing.

Your last paragraph is a nice looking set of statistics on paper but I've already been over why that looks better on paper than it actually is.

[IronDanHamza]

I can find several instances in Boxing Scene alone. If I extend the search to other boxing forums I'm sure I going to find more of the same as I've come across it many times over the years.

For my money the most overrated fighters of the 90s might be Tszyu and Naseem Hamed




http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/ne...te=1&p=7138902

Fair enough.

Tszyu's definitely a contender.

[BennyST]

I can find several instances in Boxing Scene alone. If I extend the search to other boxing forums I'm sure I going to find more of the same as I've come across it many times over the years.

For my money the most overrated fighters of the 90s might be Tszyu and Naseem Hamed

Where do you have him at 140? You've said he's overrated at 140 and that you don't rate him highly at all.

That's fine, but where would you have him then?

Most have him around 4/5. That's not overrating him, that's just having him where his accomplishments deservedly put him.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

I think bernard Hopkins is way overrated

The dude had too many poor performances

Lost his first fight

Dragged by roy

Rocked and dropped and taken to a draw by mercado

Punked out and quit vs Robert Allen the first time

Beat nothing but scrubs for most of his title reign at middleweight

Outboxed twice vs jermain taylor

Outboxed by Joe Calzaghe



Highly doubt by this thread's standards that hopkins is an atg

[sonnyboyx2]

Nah. Not true at all.

I gave Toney credit for all his wins, even the ones he scraped. I even gave Toney credit for his close loss to Griffin the second time and his draw with Sanderline Williams.

You say I'm the judge and jury yet you're the one who said Toney should have won 6 more times than he was awarded by the judges So what sense does that make?

Laughably claim that Toney dominated McCallum the 2nd time and was "robbed" against Griffin x2 and Rahman. So it's you that thinks they're the judge and jury here.

How are they excuses? Firstly I never said any of Toney's wins were meaningless except Holyfield's fossil. Secondly, how is that he tested positive an excuse? The fight with John Ruiz is a NO CONTEST I don't give credit for No contest bouts. The only contender Toney beat at Heavyweight was Holyfield's shell so forgive me if I don't rate that as amazing.

Your last paragraph is a nice looking set of statistics on paper but I've already been over why that looks better on paper than it actually is.

it is obvious you have not watched a lot of James Toney fights..

There was no "Laughingly" about me claiming Toney dominated McCallum the 2nd time. The judges had it 117-110, 117-110.. That equates to a dominant victory. But under your, "I am judge & Jury method" you claim it wasn't dominant. So i must ask you a couple of questions:

1/. Were you sitting ringside at the fight?
2/. If no to above, Are you making your judgement from watching fight on cold-flat screen video evidence?
3/. Have you ever sat ringside at a World Title fight?

I posted up a video link for Toney vs Griffin.. George Foreman said from ringside, "If Griffin won that fight, then Cow's lay eggs"...You chose to ignore this in your posts.

Holyfield vs Toney - You again refused to accept or debate the fact, Holyfield fought on for another 8yrs at a very high level, including two world title fights.. As judge & Jury on the matter, you dismissed it and found James Toney guilty.

You claim Toney tested positive so its a no contest against John Ruiz. You say this so as to take away his dominant victory, which would then scupper your whole agenda. Yet you do not mention or take away Roy Jones Jr. testing positive against Richard Hall, Jones was over 100 times over the limit. Steroids do not improve boxing ability.

You claim Toney's only success at heavyweight was "Holyfields shell".. again ignoring Toney's two excellent efforts against Sam Peter. His two excellent efforts (Toney robbed twice) against Hasim Rahman.

You rubbished his victory at cruiserweight against Jirov. You rubbished his victory over Prince Charles Williams. You rubbished his "dieing breath" last seconds victory over Tim Littles. You rubbished Iran Barkley and Toney's victory over him.. For you to claim otherwise is false!

I asked you to name me another 160lb world champion who has the achievements of James Toney at Heavyweight?.. You couldn't name me one. Then through the name Billy Conn at me. Well that is the laugh of the entire thread.

[BM dnobagaV]

One thread is praising Jones' resume, the next is you bashing Toney? Jones' 2nd best win?