Why does Andre Ward have lower number of wins by knockouts stoppages compared to GGG?

[pepzz]

Because ward fought better comp.... Im not reading this shet...

[HarvardBlue]

I think Golovkin stops brand, Miranda, Green and so forth so on. To me, they aren't any better than boxers Golovkin has already knocked out / stopped, such as Nobuhiro Ishida, Martin Murray and etc.

Do I think Golovkin could beat or stop Dawson? Depends on the version. If he fights the same weight drained version of Dawson that Ward fought at 168 pounds, then Dawson will probably be stopped by Golovkin as well.

I think the only one he might stop is Green and that's if he catches him with one shot. Green would not be intimidated by Golovkin and neither would any of the others I mentioned. The recipe for most Golovkin stoppages are fighters who give up the first time they get hit or wilt because of the pressure. It took him 11 rounds to stop Murray. The other guy wasn't that good.

I seriously doubt Golovkin would DEFEAT even a weight drained Dawson. I'm not sure you're getting the message but most people responding are saying the same thing. Ward faced tougher competition. It's not like we had a meeting and decide that's the answer we're coming up with. I think on this one you're being blinded by the fact that you're simply a GGG fan and you're not thinking logically.

[Mr Objecitivity]

I think the only one he might stop is Green and that's if he catches him with one shot. Green would not be intimidated by Golovkin and neither would any of the others I mentioned. The recipe for most Golovkin stoppages are fighters who give up the first time they get hit or wilt because of the pressure. It took him 11 rounds to stop Murray. The other guy wasn't that good.

I seriously doubt Golovkin would DEFEAT even a weight drained Dawson. I'm not sure you're getting the message but most people responding are saying the same thing. Ward faced tougher competition. It's not like we had a meeting and decide that's the answer we're coming up with. I think on this one you're being blinded by the fact that you're simply a GGG fan and you're not thinking logically.

I could accept that GGG may not stop every one of those boxers. However, I believe he stops more of those opponents out of those that you listed than Andre Ward did.

Claiming the likes of Alexander Brand, Rodriguez, Buchanan and etc wouldn't be intimidated by Golovkin's and therefore wouldn't be stopped could also apply to the likes of Martin Murray and Nobuhiro Ishida. The point is, I doubt they would be any more brave or any less scared than the aforementioned boxers GGG has already stopped.

Furthermore, not showing fear is actually going to work against them more. Nobuhiro Ishida (never been knocked out by anybody before or since) fought brave against Golovkin and got blasted out in 3 rounds. Martin Murray came to survive and fought with fear. Therefore, he survived 11 rounds. Daniel Jacobs and Canelo Alvarez also fought with fear and managed to last the distance against a more declining GGG.

Also, what point are you trying to make by claiming GGG took 11 rounds to stop Martin Murray?

You keep mentioning Ward faced tougher competition. That is true if we compare the best opponents of both. However, that's not what I'm doing. You are attacking a straw man fallacy! I'm comparing both of their knockout record against slightly inferior opposition that are all of a similar caliber.

Nothing suggests Alexander Brand , Rodriguez, Buchanan and so forth so on are any better than the likes of Martin Murray, Nobuhiro Ishida. Kell Brook, Rubio and etc. Those are the level of boxers I'm making my comparisons with.

[Mr Objecitivity]

Because ward fought better comp.... Im not reading this shet...

Explain how the likes of Alexander Brand, Rodriguez, Buchanan, Miranda and so forth are any better than the likes of Martin Murray, Nobuhiro Ishida, Kell Brook, Rubio and so forth so on?

[HarvardBlue]

I could accept that GGG may not stop every one of those boxers. However, I believe he stops more of those opponents out of those that you listed than Andre Ward did.

Claiming the likes of Alexander Brand, Rodriguez, Buchanan and etc wouldn't be intimidated by Golovkin's and therefore wouldn't be stopped could also apply to the likes of Martin Murray and Nobuhiro Ishida. The point is, I doubt they would be any more brave or any less scared than the aforementioned boxers GGG has already stopped.

Furthermore, not showing fear is actually going to work against them more. Nobuhiro Ishida (never been knocked out by anybody before or since) fought brave against Golovkin and got blasted out in 3 rounds. Martin Murray came to survive and fought with fear. Therefore, he survived 11 rounds. Daniel Jacobs and Canelo Alvarez also fought with fear and managed to last the distance against a more declining GGG.

Also, what point are you trying to make by claiming GGG took 11 rounds to stop Martin Murray?

You keep mentioning Ward faced tougher competition. That is true if we compare the best opponents of both. However, that's not what I'm doing. You are attacking a straw man fallacy! I'm comparing both of their knockout record against slightly inferior opposition that are all of a similar caliber.

Nothing suggests Alexander Brand , Rodriguez, Buchanan and so forth so on are any better than the likes of Martin Murray, Nobuhiro Ishida. Kell Brook, Rubio and etc. Those are the level of boxers I'm making my comparisons with.

I think I get where you're coming from now. However, the fact remain that none of that matter when you're assessing the skills of the two fighters. Ward is by far a better fighter than Golovkin. Most if not all would agree that Ward would win a head to head match. Golovkin having a better KO percentage wouldn't help him win. If KO percentage is the one area you can use to say Golovkin is better then so be it. I give you that but what exactly is your point? That's all you have and I still believe it was against weaker completion.

[Mr Objecitivity]

I think I get where you're coming from now. However, the fact remain that none of that matter when you're assessing the skills of the two fighters. Ward is by far a better fighter than Golovkin. Most if not all would agree that Ward would win a head to head match. Golovkin having a better KO percentage wouldn't help him win. If KO percentage is the one area you can use to say Golovkin is better then so be it. I give you that but what exactly is your point? That's all you have and I still believe it was against weaker completion.

My point is mentioned in my OP.

Actually, yes, knockout record (against relatively similar level and sized opposition) actually does matter when assessing two boxer's skills. The boxer who has more knockouts has better offensive skills and offensive skills are half of what makes up boxing skills (the other half being defensive skills). Anyway, this thread isn't about who is more skilled overall between Ward and Golovkin. Instead, it's about the comparisons between both of their punching power and purely offensive skills.

As for weaker opposition, I'm not sure on what basis you can claim that the likes of Martin Murray, Kell Brook, Rubio and Nobuhiro Ishida are weaker than the likes of Rodriguez, Alexander Brand, Buchanan and so forth so on. This is where my comparison lies.

As for who would win in a head to head match up, this thread isn't about that. Although I do believe in a neutral venue (in a country outside USA or Kazakhstan) where the rules are properly enforced, GGG would win fair and square! If the bout takes place in USA where Andre Ward is allowed to use illegal moves such as headbutts and low blows, then Ward would win.

[billeau2]

Actually, size (weight) is one of the most significant factors when determining punch resistance and power of a boxer. Exceptions such as Evander Holyfield are only that, EXCEPTIONS and not the norm! If we go by the normality / consistency of events, the heavier boxers get knocked out less than the lighter boxers. Thus, the heavier boxers are more difficult to KO / stop than lighter boxers. This is evident by the fact that most boxer's knockout percentage is lower overall against heavier opposition than lighter opposition.

I evaluate the 'skill' of a boxer by a very specific algorithm. Which is how good that boxer's offensive skills and defensive skills are combined. I don't look at isolated moves such as shoulder roll, counter punching, head movement and so forth so on. I define offensive skills as the ability to land effective / ineffective punches on the opponents and defensive skills as the ability to avoid getting hit by effective / ineffective punches from the opponent. Thus, to me, the most 'skilled' boxer is the one who's combination of offensive + defensive skills are statistically higher than all the other boxers.

Subsequently, the most skillful feat a boxer can display in a boxing bout is the ability to rarely get hit and still being able to destroy the opponent via stoppage. That is more impressive than rarely getting hit, but not damaging the opponent enough and needing decisions to win. The former indicates greater dominance over the latter. Thus, it is a more 'skillful' display!

I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not arguing Golovkin is a more skilled boxer than Ward overall. This thread is mainly related to the comparisons of Ward's and Golovkin's punching power and offensive skills. You are attacking a straw man fallacy!

Cheating is cheating! Illegal moves are illegal moves! Boxing has rules and everybody must stick to and abide by those rules. There aren't any excuses for breaking those established rules, irrespective of which boxer is doing it. It is possible to fight on the inside without cheating or by breaking the rules. James Toney was an inside fighter. Yet, he rarely, if ever used to cheat and break the rules like Andre Ward and Hopkins used to. So that isn't an acceptable excuse! If a boxer uses illegal (non boxing moves) to win boxing bouts, then that boxer didn't show any 'boxing skills' to win. Winning via a headbutt isn't a display of boxing skills. Winning via a low blow isn't a boxing skill.

Im creating a strawman?! This algorathym is quite something is it proprietary? You might want to check some of your assertions as well... its all good, you are right about the strawman just not who made him.

REgarding Ward's tactics, that is a matter that will forever be debated. Ive seen Holyfield use his head in a manner that is dangerous. and there are fighters who stray from the mark regularly... Today boxers wear trunks in a manner that often makes it difficult for fighters to go to the body and if one comes forward then bumping heads is a fact of life. In the second Kovalev fight the game changer was a beautiful accurate counter from Ward...

[HarvardBlue]

My point is mentioned in my OP.

Actually, yes, knockout record (against relatively similar level and sized opposition) actually does matter when assessing two boxer's skills. The boxer who has more knockouts has better offensive skills and offensive skills are half of what makes up boxing skills (the other half being defensive skills). Anyway, this thread isn't about who is more skilled overall between Ward and Golovkin. Instead, it's about the comparisons between both of their punching power and purely offensive skills.

As for weaker opposition, I'm not sure on what basis you can claim that the likes of Martin Murray, Kell Brook, Rubio and Nobuhiro Ishida are weaker than the likes of Rodriguez, Alexander Brand, Buchanan and so forth so on. This is where my comparison lies.

As for who would win in a head to head match up, this thread isn't about that. Although I do believe in a neutral venue (in a country outside USA or Kazakhstan) where the rules are properly enforced, GGG would win fair and square! If the bout takes place in USA where Andre Ward is allowed to use illegal moves such as headbutts and low blows, then Ward would win.

I get that KO record is part of overall skill but not an important one. David Lemieux has a better KO record than both Ward and Mayweather. Can you even compare him to those two? Not even his offensive skills.

The fact that you narrowed your list of fighters to such a small amount says a lot about your assertion.

You're in the minority thinking Golovkin would beat Ward and that's before he started showing his age. Your effort is respectable but the horse is already dead so it's time to stop beating it.

[sicko]

The same reason why GGG couldn't knock out Jacobs or Canelo, when you fight better competition, knockouts are less likely, then we really get to see how good that fighter is. If they're one-dimensional and only depend on that KO then usually they end up getting Out-Boxed and some of them even QUIT because they just can't figure their opponent out and would rather avoid further embarrassment

[Mr Objecitivity]

I get that KO record is part of overall skill but not an important one. David Lemieux has a better KO record than both Ward and Mayweather. Can you even compare him to those two? Not even his offensive skills.

The fact that you narrowed your list of fighters to such a small amount says a lot about your assertion.

You're in the minority thinking Golovkin would beat Ward and that's before he started showing his age. Your effort is respectable but the horse is already dead so it's time to stop beating it.

Actually, the ability to KO opponents (or land the most effective punches on the opponent) is every bit as important as the ability to evade those same punches from the opponent as well. This is what professional boxing is all about. The ability to land the most effective punches (that causes knockouts, knockdowns, opponents to get stunned and so forth so on) whilst evading similar punches from opponents (hit and not get hit).

Floyd Mayweather Jr is an exception because he at least proved to be note worthy at getting consistent stoppages. Andre Ward, not so much! David Lemieux's pure offensive skills are certainly better than Andre Ward and an older Floyd Mayweather Jr. His knockout / power punches are based on better punch technique / mechanics. His ability to apply aggression and set his knockouts out is also better. That doesn't mean he is a more skilled boxer overall though. Just that he has better pure offensive skills. If you combine his offensive and defensive skills and then compare them to Floyd Mayweather's, then he would be lesser skilled boxer.

I narrowed my list down because I am only comparing both of their knockout records against similar level of opposition. Obviously these are just a few names I mentioned as examples of what I meant. I could list a few more but as long as the point is delivered, that's what matters.

Actually, no, I'm not in the minority since I also believe Ward will beat GGG if the bout takes place in USA. My point was that if it were to take place outside of USA in a neutral venue, Ward would get beat IMO (just like how he would've lost against many other fighters that he beat if he were to fight them in a neutral location).

Those tactics Ward uses would get him disqualified in Germany or other European countries. So since he has never fought outside his home country, he is untested. Just going by what he has shown, if he fights GGG in a country like Germany, UK or even New Zealand, I think Ward either gets disqualified, stopped or beaten on points by GGG.