Was Ali that great?

[billeau2]

What annoys me about Ali is that had he thrown and landed more body punches he would had an easier time breaking down and stopping his opponents. Instead he relied almost solely on head punches for his offense.

Body punches take effort and/or momentum. A great Thai champion once said that punching should be effortless, and one should not try to knock out, or punch hard. In Thai boxing most of the body work is done with elbows and knees.

A fighter risks hand damage and fatigue when going to the body. Is it a thing a fighter should do? absolutely. But there are styles that discourage the risks. Ali wanted to catch with speed. Even watching Louis, the technical puncher that set the standard, he was not really much of a body puncher per se.

Again, this does not mean body punching is bad, just that some approaches use it sparingly, or even, not at all.

[billeau2]

What annoys me about Ali is that had he thrown and landed more body punches he would had an easier time breaking down and stopping his opponents. Instead he relied almost solely on head punches for his offense.

- -U describing the two of the three common features he shared with the K bros.

Yup. The Orthodox British/European boxing way is not big on body punches at all. This proclivity goes way back. I have read books where British boxing trainers from the late 1890's were talking about American fighters (Kid McCoy was one example used) innovating, using the power hand as the lead and using body punching.

Orthodox methods in Europe emphasize the jab as a set up for the power hand. Boxing is fought like a chess game: You open the opponent, with the jab and slowly bring in the cross as he falters. We see this in the Ammys as well. How do you look at a boxing glove and judge whether a body punch was in target lol?

The Klitchkos were trained as Orthodox Euro fighters. Vlad was introduced to Stewart down the line and was taught to clinch instead of flinch and panic.

Certain styles of boxing just don't use body punching, among the concerns are:
1) when you go to the body as a target coming into opponent, you are open to getting hit in the head.
2) You could damage your hands on opponent's elbows and arms.
3) unreliability: There is too much variation in how an opponent takes a shot to the body as compared to a shot to the chin tip.

Other styles make it a central feature: mexican fighters use the hook to the body the way American styled fighters use the jab.

[JakeTheBoxer]

He beat two monsters that were seen unbeatable before facing Ali. Sonny Liston and Foreman. That is why he is the greatest.

He was also able to come back and still beat all top guys in 70 -77. Insane.

[QueensburyRules]

He beat two monsters that were seen unbeatable before facing Ali. Sonny Liston and Foreman. That is why he is the greatest.

- -Need to reorganize U nonsensical sentence structure.

Ali the Greatest because he said so, not the people who labeled him gasseous Cassius.

[billeau2]

- -Need to reorganize U nonsensical sentence structure.

Ali the Greatest because he said so, not the people who labeled him gasseous Cassius.

Serious question: Do you, and I am addressing everyone here... think that one can conveniently separate the greatness of Ali, his personality, from his boxing, as one would separate wheat from the chaff?

Ever watch two gorillas fight? Now make them very very weak, very upright, give them thumbs, so they have dexterity to spare... give them a Sherlock Holmes type brain to anticipate... give them gloves if you must... and you have boxing.

We choose to give boxers and wrestlers power... No boxer, even Tyson at his most viscious, ever cuffed a fan, trying to run away, and said "give me your adoration mf!" We build our fighters up...

Tunney once said that a decent fighting man could smack an Ape in the nose and win... we all have our moments of weakness and I beg to differ. As Primates we are pathetic when it comes to the strongest of us compared to our bethron. So why not find the baddest Silver Back and hold his mighty paw up high?

We adore and give meaning to what is essentially a meaningless task, outside of the social context we create for it. Ali used that for progress. And when he did, indeed... George Foreman became a little bit bigger, tougher, as Pryer once said "Foreman walked into the ring against Ali and says 'which one the referee? cause I'm going to kill the other m o t h e r F u c k e r!'"

Ali was larger than life, and his skills were used to reinforce that image. As a boxer, compared to others, Ali would have been right along Einstein, who allegeldlly failed math classes... Both were arrogant, self confident in their understanding... Ali was able to beat some incredible fighters doing it his way...

Lets not get it twisted. We cannot decide one day, that we can take the personality of an excellent fighting man, and put it aside. It LOOKS like it could work that way...But it does not.

[Anthony342]

Yes. Yes he was.

[BostonGuy]

Body punches take effort and/or momentum. A great Thai champion once said that punching should be effortless, and one should not try to knock out, or punch hard. In Thai boxing most of the body work is done with elbows and knees.

A fighter risks hand damage and fatigue when going to the body. Is it a thing a fighter should do? absolutely. But there are styles that discourage the risks. Ali wanted to catch with speed. Even watching Louis, the technical puncher that set the standard, he was not really much of a body puncher per se.

Again, this does not mean body punching is bad, just that some approaches use it sparingly, or even, not at all.

I don't buy this "body punches take effort so you shouldn't throw them" argument. I've been watching a lot of Ali's earlier to later fights and I've come to the conclusion that his lack of body punching was a major deficiency to his skillset and arguably made his fights much harder.

I noticed that many of Ali's fights went into the deep waters or to the distance and as a result - he took a lot of punishment. Had he been dedicated to an effective body attack against his opponents, I think many of these fights would have ended earlier - by knockout.

Another issue is that Ali's lack of body punching made him more predictable to his opponents. If your opponent is not aiming punches to the body, then you don't have to defend it.

[billeau2]

I’m watching some classic boxing during this extended stay-at-home due to the coronavirus pandemic. I’ve been watching a bunch of Ali and Foreman fights (btw Foreman-Young fight was pretty entertaining) and I’m kinda underwhelmed by some of Ali’s performances.

I’ve watched the Foreman, Frasier III, Chuvalo, Bonavena and Mac Foster fights. He let Bonavena work his way inside Of him and land a lot of clean solid shots. Up until the KO in the 15th round the fight was almost dead even.


From watching this fight (and others) its evident to me that Ali never really had an inside fight game except trying up and rope-a-doping his opponents.

Granted, these fights were after Ali’s 3 plus year hiatus and he wasn’t the same fights he was once but still he wasn’t old and too shop worn.

As I watch these fights his performances were not as great as his mythical status would indicate.

What am I missing?

Its a well known fact Ali did not fight inside. If you look at whom Ali beat, and even how he found a way to win against to
ugh fighters like Bonavena, Ali was one of the few heavyweights who was matched against many ATG's. He beat them all.

Ali also had a habit of fighting to the level of his competition... I think that is what you are seeing Boston. That is an idiocyncracy lol.

[billeau2]

I don't buy this "body punches take effort so you shouldn't throw them" argument. I've been watching a lot of Ali's earlier to later fights and I've come to the conclusion that his lack of body punching was a major deficiency to his skillset and arguably made his fights much harder.

I noticed that many of Ali's fights went into the deep waters or to the distance and as a result - he took a lot of punishment. Had he been dedicated to an effective body attack against his opponents, I think many of these fights would have ended earlier - by knockout.

Another issue is that Ali's lack of body punching made him more predictable to his opponents. If your opponent is not aiming punches to the body, then you don't have to defend it.

Some styles of fighting just don't use it. Heck, today? many fighters don't fight to the body. Ali fought his own way... Like Jones. He fought in a manner that was unconventional... it cost him dearly against Frazier when he went straight back and ate that left hook.

[Zaroku]

Cassius clay was a better guy, named than Mohammed Ali.

Cassius Clay was a white man, abolitionist who for a duel and had fist fights to give blacks equal treatment and rights.

NOI, killed Malcom X and for many years Ali was in that cult.

It’s his choice to call himself Mohammed, but I’ve read Mohammed was a very white looking guy, who initially wasn’t very keen on black people.