Rating old heavyweights?

[CletusVanDamme]

Dempsey would beat Wills and had no fear of him. Wills and other black fighters should blame Jack Johnson for not getting a shot. The bad publicity Johnson generated during his reign wouldn't allow the Boxing World to take a chance on them as challengers. Langford was pretty done during Dempseys reign, however Dempsey said himself he would lose to a prime Langford.

[Terry A]

It's funny that you mentioned Klitschko, because that proves my point exactly. All the top heavies today are from the eastern bloc, so if Dempsey's record is tainted by the color line, so is Ali's, Foreman's etc. by the Iron Curtain. But none of their records are tainted.

Exactly. Nicely stated.

[McGrain]

Dempsey would beat Wills and had no fear of him. Wills and other black fighters should blame Jack Johnson for not getting a shot. The bad publicity Johnson generated during his reign wouldn't allow the Boxing World to take a chance on them as challengers. Langford was pretty done during Dempseys reign, however Dempsey said himself he would lose to a prime Langford.

What an astonishing statement. The great black fighters of the Dempsey area should blame Johnson and not the racist society of the time for their disgraceful failure to be allowed to fight for linear titles? That might be the most extraordinary thing i've ever heard.

[McGrain]

It's funny that you mentioned Klitschko, because that proves my point exactly. All the top heavies today are from the eastern bloc, so if Dempsey's record is tainted by the color line, so is Ali's, Foreman's etc. by the Iron Curtain. But none of their records are tainted.

Nobody behind the amatuer curtain was involved with professional boxing. Your point is moot. It's a little like saying Ali has a tainted record for not fighting Jim Brown.

The iron curtain guys were competing in a different version of the sport. Amatuer Boxing. Those fights could not have been made.

[McGrain]

The thing about Wills that makes me doubt that he could survive against Dempsey, let alone beat him, is the fact that he was KO'ed 5 times in his career. Look back at his record a 2nd time and look at the guys who knocked him out. And check out THEIR records as well. They were not heavy hitters and yet they knocked him out. Imagine what bombers like Dempsey would have done to him.
Do I think Harry Wills was a very good fighter? Absolutley.
Do I think he could have beaten Dempsey? No way.
Would Dempsey's all time standing be even better had he beaten Wills? Yes.
Will we ever no for sure? Unfortunately no...

PS- Glad to have you posting with us McGrain!

Thanks for the welcome friend.

Dempsey would have had youth on his side. Wills probably was past his best. But most of the loses that eliminated him from serious competition were yet to come. He was probably the second best fighter in the division after Dempsey, and that is exactly the sort of man a champion should fight.

Did you know there were actually contracts drawn up for this fight? So it could have happened - but it didn't. And because it didn't my speculation that Dempsey would be a very slight betting favourite, and your speculation that he would be a clear favourite are just that, speculation. No different than specualtion about Marciano-Frazier.

If a champion fails to fight the best fighter in his division - for whatever reason - that taints his legacy.

[Terry A]

Thanks for the welcome friend.

Dempsey would have had youth on his side. Wills probably was past his best. But most of the loses that eliminated him from serious competition were yet to come. He was probably the second best fighter in the division after Dempsey, and that is exactly the sort of man a champion should fight.

Did you know there were actually contracts drawn up for this fight? So it could have happened - but it didn't. And because it didn't my speculation that Dempsey would be a very slight betting favourite, and your speculation that he would be a clear favourite are just that, speculation. No different than specualtion about Marciano-Frazier.

If a champion fails to fight the best fighter in his division - for whatever reason - that taints his legacy.

McGrain,

For someone with only 7 posts, you present well thought out posts. For the record, I actually agree with every statement you made in the top paragraph.

I knew they "talked" of actually fighting but did not know that contracts were drawn up.

I still would pick Dempsey had they fought.

Marciano vs Frazier...all time dream fight!

Agree also with your last statement.

I gave you green rep for this very nice post.

[CletusVanDamme]

What an astonishing statement. The great black fighters of the Dempsey area should blame Johnson and not the racist society of the time for their disgraceful failure to be allowed to fight for linear titles? That might be the most extraordinary thing i've ever heard.

The fact still remains that Joe Louis had to walk on egg shells thirty years after the reign of Jack Johnson. I am an admirer of Johnson and Dempsey was wrong for not fighting Wills or other blacks, but the demand was not their for the fight at the time I don't believe. If it was Dempsey would have fought Wills.

[bengidaro]

I agree with the statement that black fighters had to run for Johnson's image. Louis' managers made him sign a stirct contract that he wouldn't be with white women, wouldn't drink in public and was forbidden from all the other stuff Johnson was known for. That's why he wasn't loud or anything because they wanted to project him as a calm, well spoken gentleman which is the opposite of Johnson.
As for Dempsey not being able to beat the black contenders that's ridiculous. He is one of the all time greatest for a reasn despite racism or society.

[McGrain]

McGrain,

For someone with only 7 posts, you present well thought out posts. For the record, I actually agree with every statement you made in the top paragraph.

I knew they "talked" of actually fighting but did not know that contracts were drawn up.

I still would pick Dempsey had they fought.

Marciano vs Frazier...all time dream fight!

Agree also with your last statement.

I gave you green rep for this very nice post.

Thanks for the review (i've still to work out all of that yet).

I got Frazier stopping Rocky late. You?

[Kayjay's Ghost]

Nobody behind the amatuer curtain was involved with professional boxing. Your point is moot. It's a little like saying Ali has a tainted record for not fighting Jim Brown.

The iron curtain guys were competing in a different version of the sport. Amatuer Boxing. Those fights could not have been made.

Well I think it's clear that our distinction between professional and amateur is much less relevant to a socialist economic system. But I'll concede . . .

Welcome to BS McGrain.